Kristina Hoeppner: 0:04

Welcome to'Create. Share. Engage.' This is the podcast about portfolios for learning and more for educators, learning designers, and managers keen on integrating portfolios with their education and professional development practices. 'Create. Share. Engage.' is brought to you by the Mahara team at Catalyst IT. My name is Kristina Hoeppner. I'm stoked to be speaking with Associate Professor Dr Zala Volcic from Monash University today. Dr Ingrid D'Souza introduced me to her in 2019. Dr Kevin Kelly from San Francisco State University and I have researched what then became the AAEEBL Digital Ethics principle of DEIBD, which stands for diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, and decolonisation, and we spoke with Zala and some of her colleagues, Dr Frankie Egan, Prof Dr JaneMaree Maher, and Dr Emily van der Nagel. Welcome to the podcast, Zala. It's good to catch up.

Zala Volcic: 1:09

Oh, Kristina, thank you so much for having me. I so appreciate your interest and your work in this space. Thank you.

Kristina Hoeppner: 1:17

Thank you so much, Zala. Before we actually get started with the questions, and I'm super excited to finally after, I think, four and a half years roughly be talking with you again, I would like to congratulate you on being the latest recipient of the Award for Australian University Teacher of the Year for 2023. That's a wonderful achievement and confirmation of your commitment to your students. Congratulations, Zala.

Zala Volcic: 1:44

Thank you, Kristina. Thanks so much. That's so nice. And you know, it's a wonderful opportunity for me here to thank my colleagues at Monash as well. It's wonderful to be working within the community of committed educators at Monash University and specifically at Arts Faculty and my school, which is the School of Media, Screen Studies, and Journalism. They have been absolutely wonderful.

Kristina Hoeppner: 2:07

It's always great to catch up with you and also with Carmen and Ingrid, who work very closely with portfolios and see what you're up to. So I'm really happy that we can share a bit more about what you're doing in the Bachelor of Media Communication.

Zala Volcic: 2:22

I do want to say to work with Ingrid, the dearest educational designer, has been really life changing in so, so many ways. And also I so appreciate talking about ePortfolio and our teaching in generally because, I think, it's so important to in a way celebrate our work because we do teach and we mentor and we guide, but we also inspire and encourage and care for each other and our students and also help to intervene with specifically innovations such as ePortfolio that then work so beautifully for community, educational spirit, and for our students in particular.

Kristina Hoeppner: 2:59

Yeah, before we get to the particular portfolio questions, let's maybe backtrack a little bit. Who are you? What do you do? I mean, we know that you work at Monash University, but do you want to tell us a bit more about your role, Zala?

Zala Volcic: 3:13

I would love to, thanks, Kristina. So I now teach at Monash University, but I have been teaching at different international universities in Europe, in United States, a now in Australia. I come from the region of former Yugoslavia. So I grew up during turbulent times. I have witnessed, you know, the collapse of communism in Yugoslavia and the rise of nationalisms, and then the violent collapse of my country, and you know, this really profoundly shaped me as a teacher as well. So very early on, I was interested in the role of media and media propaganda. I was asking myself as a young woman questions such as you know, how and why do media affect us? How can in a way the soul of community be healed after the trauma of wars? What can we do in terms of education to bring us together? And what does it mean to come to terms with the traumatic past? So these were kind of intellectual questions, and then I decided to do my PhD in United States in Media Studies, and so I come from media studies discipline. Media studies in the United States is in Arts and Humanities Education. To grow within this framework really deeply shaped me as well because this type of education is, I would say, intentionally intimate and beneficially broad. Coming from media studies, you know, wow, what a moment to be teaching media studies about the media. We see the rise of automated systems that promise to take on a growing range of tasks, including teaching, I would say, but the one area that remains beyond their reach is that of creative human thinking. This is what I try to do in my classrooms as well: To teach the students about the media. Of course, one of the problems that I think we face and it does already connect to ePortfolio is that the challenge of teaching about the media is that our students are immersed in the media and the media themselves have, in a way become relentlessly self reflexive. My goal as a teacher is to push through these existing preconceptions to provide my students with new and very productive ways of thinking about the technologies in which they are immersed, but also about the practices that have become automatic for them. EPortfolio, in that way, very early on, offered me that possibility. One more sentence just to finish the circle. What drives my teaching and particular kinds of innovations in my classrooms is my research. I love my research, my methodologies, you know, qualitative, I do focus groups and in depth interviews with people and I'm interested in how they consume the media. With those stories then I go into my classrooms, and we discover the media worlds together with my students.

Kristina Hoeppner: 6:10

I think, you are then in the correct position because you're not just an Associate Professor in the Faculty of Arts, teaching your media students, but you are also the Director of teaching Innovation within the Faculty of Arts. So you have this wonderful dual role of being a teacher and also the researcher and can progress all of those ideas that you've just talked about and many others that your colleagues are researching, and bringing all of that together in an innovative environment.

Zala Volcic: 6:40

Yeah, this role, Kristina, really nicely allows me to experiment and to go deeper within some of the theoretical ideas as well, that I have been writing about. So it allows me deeper engagement with my community and that is the community of my colleagues and the community of my students and then also the community of industry voices, especially in media studies, in the degree, you know, that I have been directing, Bachelor of Media Communication, we have a very strong industry board with members coming from media studies and screen studies and journalism spaces and critical PR. We love conversations and dialogue and learn from each other, and to really think about different perspectives. This role really, in a way, it's very exciting. It's very timely for me, and it's really based on the premise of, I would say, three notions. The first one is community. The second one is relationships. So relationships that we build with each other while we are together, you know, in the classroom. And thirdly, it's this notion that I really deeply care about, which is compassion. Compassion for each other, compassion for the knowledge, compassion for the practices of daily life because it's such a huge responsibility to be teaching our students and sending them out into the world. Really my maxim is that as teachers, we should intrigue students. By that in a way, I mean, that we must communicate to our students that there are some realms of knowledge and practices, new practices worth knowing that they don't yet know, and then conveying, you know, our own passion and excitement about our own work and research and thinking that's just energising for everybody. Because I also really believe that when students see our genuine passion, they get passionate about knowledge in new ways of learning themselves. If we are there for them in the classroom, outside the classroom with particular extracurricular activities, that just works.

Kristina Hoeppner: 8:55

All the things you've already mentioned, community relationships, compassion, they fall very, very nicely into the portfolio practice. So I'd kind of like to know when were you actually introduced to portfolios?

Zala Volcic: 9:09

The Bachelor of Media Communication, it's an undergraduate degree. It now has over 1,000 students, domestic and international. The degree was implemented in 2018, at the end of 2018, with the idea to build a bridge between theory and practice so that we are committed to explore the layers of theory and history with our students, but at the same time that we teach skills in a very meaningful and really deep manner. Very early on, we were working with Monash educational designers at Arts Faculty, and so ePortfolio started in 2018 and really picked up a year and a half later. We started with the first year, and we implemented ePortfolio in first year units. These are large units, we teach at scale. We have roughly 400 students in our first year unit. But we see these units as crucial. They lie at the heart of undergraduate education. That's where the socialisation happens as well of our students. That's where you can really build a sense of belonging, and you help students to discover themselves and explore and engage. We put a lot of intellectual effort into our first year units. And so to really start with first year units really made sense to us. Now, ePortfolio is implemented in the degree throughout the three years. It's beautiful. I mean, it has been the most successful, I would say, impactful intervention that really helped to promote this community focused education that BMC really prides itself on. It really strengthened student engagement, plenty of evidence to show that this has been extremely important, if not key part of innovations within the degree.

Kristina Hoeppner: 11:09

Oh that is wonderful to hear, and also seeing that authentic learning is important and has its place, especially for journalism, where we can't just learn the theory of how to write something or how to interview somebody, but ideally, students can do it and experience also the pressure that can be on any of those activities. Now that you're using portfolios with all of your students throughout the degree, what sort of portfolios do your students create? I assume a lot of is for assessment purposes, of course, because it is fully integrated into the degree, but do they also use it to gain internships or while they are on internships? If you can go into a bit more detail for us so that we get a better idea of how that can be implemented in one of those degrees.

Zala Volcic: 12:00

I'll try to be as systematic as possible. The thing is that I do get very enthusiastic talking about ePortfolio. So I hope I can be as clear as possible. But let me firstly say, you're right, of course, it allows for a rich array of assessments, and it also provides continuous feedback, and it captures skills gained over time for our students. I would say on the general level, it allows, especially, you know, media and screen and journalism and PR students to curate, and, more importantly even showcase the knowledge and the ideas and imagination that they have gained and that they have been shaping throughout their degree. The ePortfolio is able to show how our student has grown intellectually throughout those three years. This use, I think, allows that the students' assessments can be collected and housed electronically, as you said, that's one level, and that's kind of quite technical. Students understand why they are being asked to do each test, how it helps them to be also, in a way professionally ready, because we communicate this to them, and we give them constant feedback on that. That's one very important layer. I think providing this very interactive feedback as well to students is extremely important. Communicating to the students why it matters, it helps to send the message to our students to be professionally ready, why it's important to be professionally ready, and how. It's great to be teaching media. I love it. It's very creative, it's full of imagination. Our students create video essays, they create different artworks, they create podcasts, they create radio podcasts, they create folios. It's extremely diverse. But what I feel it really is very important to think about these times because I think ePortfolio provides them with a sense of the continuity and development of their achievements over the course of the degree. They see how they're growing from the first year units into the second year unit, and then, wow, the third year. They're able to see how they're growing, how they're building, how they're changing, how their intellectual subjectivity is growing, and is being transformed, how more and more they're connected to their own work and ideas, and how their own work is entering spaces of the world, whether that's newspapers where they want to work or different film productions, and so on. I think that's extremely important to point out. The ePortfolio on that layer really allows for academic rigour. Our assessments are extremely complex and really allow for theoretical historical rigour, but there is additional incentive for our students to embrace this professional level of commitment to craft their work in a very, very strong manner. So it's both at the same time. The ePortfolio allows students to document their mastery of practical skills that they gained, but then, you know, for me, what is very important is that the students are able while using ePortfolio, and we talk about it, and we share and we collaborative, they give each other feedback, right, they are able to develop personal, and for me, that's extremely important personal, professional, and social responsibility, so civic responsibility. Our goal as educators is also prepare our students as citizens to enter the world that they are. They have a social responsibility, and they're building on their professional identity, of course, but they're also being shaped as people. That's a nice additional attribute of ePortfolio.

Kristina Hoeppner: 15:47

Also that your students get the chance to try and use all of the technologies and techniques they learn and have those then assist, and that's why the portfolios that I have seen are some of your students, they were extremely media rich, very visual, because of course, it lends itself beautifully to that. That, of course, is often the learning evidence, the product that they've created to demonstrate what they have been doing. But do they also use those visualisations or audio and video to reflect on their practice? Or is that happening mainly in text? Or is that a mix?

Zala Volcic: 16:28

No, no, that's kind of the beauty because it allows for the engagement that the students have among themselves and with us, the lecturers, and sometimes with the industry. We would invite film makers to come and already comment on particular group work. Throughout this reflexivity process, we emphasise the connection between academic and practical, but then also for us creative aspects of students' work, and they're able to see these different dimensions. For example, we would emphasise or communicate or dissect or analyse, you know, the effort that is so purely seen in the students' work that students put into building their ePortfolios. We would comment how we can see the professional growth and how we invite the students for self reflection as well that they are then able to articulate. The ePortfolio integration allowed us as lecturers to see but also I mean, so clearly, the students are able to articulate this as well to tell you their stories, how this has empowered students to take extra care and pride if you even want in the final submission. They are meeting the learning purpose, but it's so much more. It motivates students if you want to use this particular language of encouragement and motivation. It really enabled us as educators to motivate students to build their own critical scholarship, to be very, very proud of it, and to showcase it and with that work, go out there and show it and get internships and jobs. Show it to the parents. I mean, I think that's important factor as well to use your personal and then social and professional communities where you share. So it's not lost, basically. It has that extra dimension. And also, you know, that you prepare the students. I mean, so many of our students first year they're so young, they're full of hopes and dreams, and they may not necessarily know what do they want to do, what they're really interested in. So it allows them to really experiment with different mediums, with different ways, genres, with different types, of course of knowledge. And in that way, anticipating the transition to future careers. I think it's really important because it imagines you know, the future employers. In this present climate for the students to be able to electronically share their learning opportunities with wider communities is extremely, I think, important. That's where the students' feedback on the use of ePortfolio really comes out. They love this idea that they can showcase their works throughout their three years of studying. I don't know whether that's interesting for our listeners, but also the industry, they really celebrate the ePortfolio. I give you a very concrete example, a wonderful industry board member Jo Painter, she's the Director of ICON Agency. She has been an Australian PR leader of 2021, for example. She has given to our students a lot of internships and a couple of jobs, but she says, "Look, it really fosters student reflective practice and critical learning. With those skills, it's absolutely wonderful to immediately see who the student is what they're interested in, and it helps me as an employer."

Kristina Hoeppner: 19:47

Because we want to see that people can learn from previous experiences and make them better or employ similar techniques in a different circumstance. So Zala, what guidance do you give to your students to become these reflective practitioners, to do that self reflection? Do you have a framework for that or some guiding questions that you like to use?

Zala Volcic: 20:12

I think it runs throughout the degree in a more cultural sense. What works is not specific, you know, questions or suggestions that we would have for students, but it's implemented within the intellectual core curriculum that runs throughout the degree in every single unit. I'll give you an example. It runs from the first your unit, and we were talking about the importance of first year units here, where as teachers, we are not only present in the classroom with our intellectual abilities, but also as individuals with different experiences and backgrounds. We really try to create a culture of mutual respect and honesty and exploration and open mindedness and the really genuine concern for teaching and learning. I would argue that these are key principles within BMC that the students really respond because they get to know you, as a teacher, as someone who is, of course, in my case, an expert in specific area, but it's also a person who grew up in specific context and is able to self reflect on practices and being in the world and in personal and professional way. We, for example, in the first year unit, created a wonderful layer that is called'Conversations with media professionals'. We have collaborated with our students to make and we continue to make short videos, these are conversations interviews with some of the top scholars in the world. For example, we would have film makers from Argentina or a conversation with an editor for Asian TV. We would be asking personal questions, also professional, how they have been growing, how they decided what to study, what are they doing now, and these conversations would be guided by specific questions, but it's all about self reflection as well. I think once you cultivate a culture that is both, again, based on rigour and hard work as well, each of us needs to put in, lecturers and students, then, I think, self reflection, you have a framework basically for it. By the time they come to the second year, it's much easier.

Kristina Hoeppner: 22:24

What I really love, Zala, is that the self reflection is woven into the programme.

Zala Volcic: 22:31

Yes.

Kristina Hoeppner: 22:31

Because you're committed to also building inclusive communities, building communities, building relationships, and then showing compassion that you're not saying, 'Okay, now we are dealing with this one thing, now we are dealing with this other thing, and now we're doing self reflection,' but that it all comes together that maybe you're not even potentially using the word 'self reflect' at some point, but because of the way you're asking your question and how you're demonstrating asking the questions by all of these professionals you're talking with...

Zala Volcic: 23:02

That's so beautiful because when we are learning about the different perspectives and also about how we learn, we are going to sometimes get things wrong, or we are going to make assumptions that were untrue. We just need to own that, and once we are aware of it to do better the next time. Every profession in our society involves human beings, whether you are an engineer or a doctor or a journalist, a scientist or politician, there is a fundamental basic, I would say, human commonality. We all face some kinds of existential, social, political, but also psychological realities. I think this approach of the community and compassion, relationship, and self reflexivity addresses these in a very profound way. This self awareness with the focus on humanistic, if you want, development and cultivation centres us in our own human condition. This makes us more effective, also more humane, more compassionate, but also more skilled person in whatever profession we decide to go into. I think a lot of times we forget about that, and I think it's so important to be stressing this to each other as colleagues, as academics, as educators, and to our students not to shy away to say this, and clearly communicate this message. I think the students really appreciate that.

Kristina Hoeppner: 24:24

Because we don't always get it right the first time around.

Zala Volcic: 24:27

That's correct.

Kristina Hoeppner: 24:28

There's always a bit of trial and error, and if that is built into the fabric of how the students study, then it becomes more normalised.

Zala Volcic: 24:37

Yeah, no, you're right. I love teaching. I just get all my energy also from my research and further work for me. But I do worry that sometimes we start to see university education as merely professionalising. That at the heart sometimes that we see our exclusive goal of university education is to equip for our professions and doing career, but I do think we shouldn't be neglecting the fundamental condition of the individual students. We need to continue to do this other work as well because we need to do both. I just came from this conference in London on educational leadership. It was four days of conversations about what's the purpose of university, and where should we be going? It was great, and I think we need to understand I'm for both positions.

Kristina Hoeppner: 25:28

Zala, this is a very, very important point because also just recently, I've talked with Derrin Kent from The Development Manager in the UK, that is basically a company that provides degree apprenticeships and works with companies to get these apprentices and then also works with universities on the other hand, so that students also get their degree. He's marrying both sides up. So the professional side, which you can get through an apprenticeship, where you learn on the job, where you do the things that your employer needs at the moment. But then also on the other side, you have the university degree where you can explore more, where your need to explore more so that you're not just teaching to the present, but can also look into, okay, what might that mean, in three to five years? What are some fundamentals that we need to give students on hand so that they can innovate, that they can think about themselves, that they can think critically? So kind of bringing both of those things together, I think, that is good. Many universities, of course, currently do this in a way through the internships. So work-integrated learning that is extremely important because students do need to be exposed to the professional world in order to also be able to situate themselves later on.

Zala Volcic: 26:44

You're so right. You see this in students then as well because I think what ePortfolio then does is it invites them, it's a beautiful communicative space, in a way space of hope if you want, and they just play and they design and they redesign and they edit, and they spend much more energy to perfect their work that is really beautiful to see. And so I think in this way, I'm like you I'm extremely positive and optimistic despite some of the dire times that we are living in. We take this positive moment of uncertainty, and this implementation of a portfolio is precisely that positive moment within uncertain times. It's beautiful to see the feedback from the students, the feedback from colleagues, and the feedback from industry.

Kristina Hoeppner: 27:29

Entirely. Zala, we are both very positive, we are both optimistic about portfolios, we love portfolios, we know why they are good for our learners, but is there anything that you would really, really like to be able to do, but currently can't just yet to?

Zala Volcic: 27:46

Look, I do want to say that for us in BMC, what really worked and continues to work is the work of designers, our educational designers. As I said, the work that Ingrid D'Souza did very, very early on, she really laid the ground, and the continuous collaborations that we have with educational designers is incredible. These colleagues work and are there for us and our students 24 hours a day when sometimes there is submission button that doesn't work. They're just always there in terms, again, of the physical work, design work, but also in terms of psychological encouragement work. We are very lucky because we have been supported in this sense. Educational designers are providing and organising specific workshops as well for students. We have different mentoring programmes, even, for the students to showcase the good portfolios, I'm actually very happy how it works now. If the students could take the ePortfolio with them in the long run, that would be really, really beneficiary. And then also if we could open it up as well to colleagues who are not part of the university. So if it would be a little bit more flexibility in terms of openness, that would really work. There's just smaller comments in terms of how to provide feedback, if it could be easier to comment on group work, to do those kinds of ways, but these are small comments and suggestions that I think we are addressing as we go.

Kristina Hoeppner: 29:18

We are addressing some of them also in the UX review that we are currently doing of Mahara, and that some of your students will actually also very soon be involved in. So I look forward to their feedback.

Zala Volcic: 29:29

Me too.

Kristina Hoeppner: 29:30

Speaking of your educational designers, Ingrid laid the foundation and then over the last few years, you've had Carmen Sapsed and the three of you actually wrote a paper together for last year's Eportfolio Forum, so I'll also make sure that I'll put the link into the episode notes to that because that also really beautifully shows that interplay between you as the academic, as the faculty member, and then the educational designers on the other side and making sure that everything works. together in order to give your students the best possible learning experience.

Zala Volcic: 30:04

Yeah, it's beautiful to see, as you say, you really have students engaged with providing feedback. I think that's a wonderful as well because they feel that they are a part of the process. And the student voices are so important. It's the work that you do sharing and really making sure that we all get informed about each other's uses and how and what works for us, and just the philosophies behind it because it's, of course, not just a particular technological platform, but it's so much more, as you point out in your conversations, in your own work, and as I hope, you know, that our conversation contributed to as well.

Kristina Hoeppner: 30:40

Most definitely. Now, before we get to our quick answer round, Zala, is there anything else that you would like to share?

Zala Volcic: 30:49

I think in BMC, we now have a pretty good rhythm to ePortfolio. But it's very important, I think, to realise that stagnation is the enemy of good teaching and learning. So we feel very comfortable now. It's important to continue to think about different strategies to ensure that the ePortfolio remains very fresh, meets the challenges that we are all having and we are all going to continue to face, and that it contributes to transform itself as well and its role. And I think that in technological sense, but also in intellectually symbolic way.

Kristina Hoeppner: 31:25

With more and more faculties at Monash also going to use the portfolio, that'll also help keeping it fresh and looking at each other. What is the other one doing? What are you doing? Can we take something that somebody else had thought about that might also be good for you?

Zala Volcic: 31:39

Yes, yes. I mean, I think the beautiful thing is that then we can really share and exchange across the university, not just you know, in our case within Arts Faculty that is already brilliant in terms of ePortfolio, and it's interesting, because, of course, I come from Arts Faculty, and I'm advocating arts education. I think we lie at the heart of also the portfolio, and if I may say, you know, I think we are guiding the rest of university in terms of intellectual implementation and philosophies, but it's beautiful to see the rest of the faculties following and learning from Arts. Arts should really get credit, and then that we share and exchange our students work, because it's amazing because most of the work that the students produce, create, and then put onto ePortfolio is just - you get really spoiled.

Kristina Hoeppner: 32:33

Thank you for that, Zala. So let's jump into our quick answer round. Which words or short phrases do you use to describe portfolio work?

Zala Volcic: 32:45

Imagination, collaboration, and courage.

Kristina Hoeppner: 32:50

Nice. That is, I think, also, where I can see that as a summary of your Bachelor's in Media Communication, all of that coming through and what you have talked about. What tip do you then have for learning designers, educational designers, or instructors who create portfolio activities for their own learners?

Zala Volcic: 33:10

It really matters, this aspect of collaboration. So really carefully, listening to each other, and learning and working with each other to take all the expertise the educational designers give to us academics. Of course, educational designers then leave a lot of space for us, the lecturers, because we are the experts within particular discipline and know what works for our students. I do think we just need to be patient. Sometimes things don't necessarily work in the first step. So just persevere, persist, try it out, talk to our students. I'm a believer, we need to be in the classroom, to talk to students to hear them to get their feedback. And that requires and physically in the classroom and working with them and grading their work and giving them feedback on their being in the classroom outside the classroom ready to hear them and really take their voice into account. For that we need time. We need space to be together in a very, very meaningful way, and then magic happens.

Kristina Hoeppner: 34:12

We need to bullet point all of these tips because there was way more than one tip which is fantastic because there's lots of in there, and I'm sure that everyone can find at least one, two, or three things that they can take on for their own practice. Now to the last question then Zala, what advice do you have for your students or for anybody else who wants to create portfolios?

Zala Volcic: 34:37

Some of the students get quite afraid, either they're shy or as with any new way of submitting assignments, it's terrifying. Being at the university in first year it's already difficult and hard. There are all these new things happening around what it means to be a student: expectations and then guidelines and then pressures, I mean from all sorts of angles. And then on the top of it, this new thing ePortfolio. But to just go smoothly and very openly about these to seek out help and support, either from fellow students. That's why this culture is so important. So that it's not even a question of solidarity and openness and inclusion, just really of compassion, so that you reach out with any kind of questions, problems, dilemmas that you reach out to your professors and that you reach out to educational designers if needed. Help is really there, and that's not just for ePortfolio. It's for all the layers or students, whether they are first year students or when they are growing up within the structure of university. There are people around who are so willing to help, and we are there for each other.

Kristina Hoeppner: 35:48

Those educational designers, they are the superheroes in that fabric because they know so much, they need to keep the context in mind, find activities that really work for what you as academic want to achieve, and then the both of you work well together in order to bring this all together for the students.

Zala Volcic: 36:07

YYou're very right. I cannot stress enough the work of educational designers, and so you know, Arts Monash has Jo Hooks, we have Carmen (Sapsed), and we have Andrew (Junor) and they're just absolutely amazing.

Kristina Hoeppner: 36:20

Wonderful, and thank you for the shout out to your colleague, Zala, so that we also know that it's not just educational designers, but every one of them has a name and is a person and so we're coming back to this: it is relational, i is a community, and we need to have compassion for all of us. So thank you so much for really stressing this and also exemplifying it very well using the bachelor that you are directing and showing us how the portfolio is not just a portfolio that the students need to do, but really is part of that entire study programme that you have this programmatic approach to it that it is seen throughout and the students carry on the students learn more about it and then can also see throughout their years that they are with you how they've gotten better. So thank you for showing that.

Zala Volcic: 37:12

Thanks so much for having me. It was such a pleasure and joy to chat with you and I want to wish you all the best. I hope to have conversation sometime soon again.

Kristina Hoeppner: 37:21

Thank you, Zala. Now over to our listeners. What do you want to try in your own portfolio practice? This was'Create. Share. Engage.' with Associate Professor Dr Zala Volcic. Head to our website podcast.mahara.org where you can find resources and the transcript for this episode. This podcast is produced by Catalyst IT, and I'm your host Kristina Hoeppner, Project lead and Product Manager after the portfolio platform Mahara. Our next episode will air in two weeks. I hope you'll listen again and tell a colleague about our podcast so they can subscribe. Until then create, share and engage.