Kristina Hoeppner: 0:04

Welcome to'Create. Share. Engage.' This is the podcast about portfolios for learning and more for educators, learning designers, and managers keen on integrating portfolios into their education and professional development practices. 'Create. Share. Engage.' is brought to you by the Mahara team at Catalyst IT. My name is Kristina Hoeppner. My guest today is Professor Dr Patsie Polly who is the Director and Fellow of the UNSW Scientia Education Academy at the University of New South Wales in Australia. I had the pleasure of working closely with Patsie in 2016 on chapter eight of the'Field Guide to ePortfolio' that was published a year later, but prior to that we had collaborated on a presentation at the AAEEBL Annual Meeting in 2015. So I've had the opportunity to learn from Patsie for a while now and look forward to our chat today. Thank you for making time, Patsie.

Patsie Polly: 1:02

Thank you for inviting me, Kristina. This is fun.

Kristina Hoeppner: 1:04

I'm kind of roping you into things occasionally...

Patsie Polly: 1:07

What are friends for? I love it.

Kristina Hoeppner: 1:08

Let's try a different medium this time, not short, fast presentations. While, of course, I think a lot of people here in Oceania, especially in Australia, know you because you have (been) a big supporter of portfolios for a long time and are also incredibly active in ePortfolios Australia and also AAEEBL, but for those of us who don't yet know you, can you tell us a bit about yourself? What do you do?

Patsie Polly: 1:33

My background is actually molecular biology. So what that means is that I am a scientist, a biomedical scientist, by training, and I've worked in a lot of research labs over the years. My discipline interest has been in recent times a whole body wasting due to cancer, a process called cancer cachexia. When bringing that concept of the associated issues related to cancer cachexia and in particular muscle wasting to undergraduate students, it became very complicated in terms of how to teach that. So while I built a lot of types of resources to support student learning, I really wanted to understand if students were going to understand the concepts taught in the courses that I teach. I teach within second and third year undergraduate, predominantly biomedical science courses, and I've also supervised honour students and PhD students, but the core concepts have to be learned early on. So I really wanted students to understand how reflect on these and how to think deeply about what they were learning.

Kristina Hoeppner: 2:39

We'll come back to what you've just said because that, of course, is the core of our interview today, but before that, I'd love to know because I don't think I've ever asked you that, how did you actually get introduced to portfolios yourself?

Patsie Polly: 2:53

I was, I guess, approached by colleagues in the Learning and Teaching Unit at the University of New South Wales in 2011/2012. One of those colleagues was Kate Coleman, at the time, and they had interviewed me about the type of assessment tasks that I built into courses, which are authentic assessment tasks because I wanted students to understand what biomedical research was all about, but pinning that idea of deep thinking about a concept in biomedical research to a task within their course was my interest. Kate and colleagues suggested that I join the Mahara pilot, actually, that was running at the University of New South Wales, and I joined that in 2012, we were funded, and it was to bring in an ePortfolio platform but also a pedagogy and a type of practice using Mahara. So that was how I started in 2012, and I've just kept going 12 years later.

Kristina Hoeppner: 3:59

Yeah, it's been a long time that your students have had the pleasure of working with portfolios in their courses and also for work-integrated learning, and that, of course, was one of the focus areas for us in the Field Guide in our chapter and then also prior to that in the presentation we had done because at that time that was the more of a new thing that you could then follow your students, and they could reflect on their practice.

Patsie Polly: 4:25

Yes.

Kristina Hoeppner: 4:26

Patsie, you've already told us why you are using portfolios with your students. What does that look like for them?

Patsie Polly: 4:33

Okay, so I have to say at this point, I'm not using a portfolio system. I'm using a portfolio pedagogy within our LMS, which happens to be Moodle. So the idea is to connect a reflective piece back to an authentic assessment task that students have engaged with. The whole idea of introducing reflective practice to students who are science undergraduates is that we, as a science tribe, actually struggle with reflective practice. That's something we need to develop over time because we need to be able to think critically, we need to be able to troubleshoot, and we need to be able to make sense of the data and the experimental outcomes that we generate. So without having that deep understanding of what we're doing and what it means, it's hard to go further in our careers. So I wanted to start very early in second and third year courses to get students going. Actually, we did start in third year, and then we moved back to second year and into honours. It's been an interesting journey.

Kristina Hoeppner: 5:38

How are you supporting then your students in their reflective practice? Do you give them guidelines? Do you have a framework for that? How does it work?

Patsie Polly: 5:47

It all started with a series of, I think, it was six scaffold questions to get them going with the reflective practice. It started off as a research project. I was interested in how the scaffolding would work, and it worked quite well. Then students were feeding back this is too much, too many questions. So I reduced the questions to, I think, two or three key questions and with time actually removed all the questions and just added a few word prompts to get students started. Now I've created a reflective rubric. It's got a very detailed set of criteria, but I don't release that to the students. That actually causes a lot of, I guess, push back. "Why haven't we got something to guide us in?" The question I always ask is, "Don't you want to write about something from your personal and professional perspective that's not a formula? Let's just hear what you think. There's no right or wrong answer here. This is your personal professional reflection. You may hate what you're doing, and that's absolutely all right. But you need to validate or substantiate why you hate that because that's what we do in the real world. If we have problems with what we're doing, we have to have reasons for why." I've taken everything away. I've taken all the scaffolding away, and they're still above to do it.

Kristina Hoeppner: 7:03

Recently, you and Kate, since you've mentioned Kate Coleman, who's now at the University of Melbourne, recently, you both have placed a blog post on the university's website around feedback and generative AI. Have you seen your students actually attempting to use a chatbot to write their reflections?

Patsie Polly: 7:23

I don't think they are using a chatbot because you can tell, I think, with the writing. At times I see depth, and at times I don't see depth. I don't think that's a chatbot issue. I think that's a problem of time and also practice. Yes, I know the bots can give good feedback to students or provide a reflective post, but I do give students a series of prompts or words that they should be thinking about. The limit is, I think, not more than 500 words. There's not much you can say that relates back to that particular task in 500 words. So it's pretty directed. I don't think I've seen chat writing yet, but if a reflection comes through through use of generative AI, I would like to ask the students why. Why were they offloading something to a bot rather than relying on themselves? Because I think they can do it. This is a small stakes task. You don't have to worry too much about writing from the heart.

Kristina Hoeppner: 8:22

It is important that they learn that practice because otherwise they are not becoming that reflective practitioner.

Patsie Polly: 8:29

Yes, and offloading that to a machine is problematic because you're going to get asked somewhere along the line, what is the meaning of what you're doing, in the moment, and if the machine is not there to help you, it's a big problem. Although, the machine can help you get coached in how to write. And that's okay, as long as you attribute what you're doing to that machine or that generative AI. The attribution is important here. This is the academic integrity piece. It's not the point of making the bot write something for you. It's about if the bot helped you, how did it help you, and let's talk about it.

Kristina Hoeppner: 9:05

It will be interesting to see how that develops...

Patsie Polly: 9:08

It will be.

Kristina Hoeppner: 9:09

... because there are of course chatbots that help you reflect, which I find do make it sometimes easier to start with a reflection or really get away from that surface thinking of I'm just providing a summary, which I think might be a reflection, but actually it's not and then really dig deeper into that why. Okay, so now tell me a little bit more. Tell me a little bit more, especially when somebody is not yet so practised in it or can't really figure out where they should be starting with their reflection if they haven't gotten any specific prompts. So I think for that it can be useful. But yes, as you say, we shouldn't offload the thinking part to the machine because that's what will become even more important that we can think critically for ourselves. Patsie, you've said that you have changed from using very guided prompts to being a bit freer for your students so that they can express themselves. Is there anything else that you have changed in your portfolio practice over the years?

Patsie Polly: 10:08

Not really. Apart from taking away the prompts, the process of providing a space for reflection has been consistent over the years, and the process of linkage to an authentic task has been consistent over the years. That's something that has been adopted by many courses within our biomedical science programme. It's a simple way of starting. So that's why I keep it there. Then students can build up to something that they may write about, for example, in a discussion of their honours thesis or PhD thesis. While the reflection started as a small piece, they learned that making meaning of what they were doing was valuable, and then they could transfer that mode of writing to other places like thesis writing, for example. While it's not a personal reflection in a thesis writing genre, you do have to take a stance, you have to take a position and write according to the way you've thought about the work that you've generated.

Kristina Hoeppner: 11:10

How have your students taken on the idea of the reflection, and since you started early on when they come to university and use portfolios throughout the entire programme? Do you see that progression also in the students of getting better at reflection?

Patsie Polly: 11:28

This is the point. At the moment in the biomedical sciences degree programme, it is done course by course. So it needs a proper programmatic approach. The students see this as a coaching mechanism for critical writing and reflective writing. Hopefully, in the near future, we'll be able to work that up a bit better. I know in the medical programme, it's a lot more streamlined because that is a professional degree programme where you have a really good integration of reflective practice. But in some of our science degree programmes, this is happening course by course. I don't think it works that effectively course by course. An ePortfolio pedagogy, I think, is best applied in a programmatic or systemic fashion throughout a programme because it's a process, and a degree programme is a process.

Kristina Hoeppner: 12:23

That gives the students then the opportunity to also transfer what they have learned before into a different area and continue with it.

Patsie Polly: 12:30

Exactly. So in answer to your question, I think students who have seen this before are quite comfortable. Students who haven't seen a reflective or a request for a reflective piece in one of my courses would be uncomfortable. But the purpose of it is to stop the discomfort and get more and more in tune with writing reflectively.

Kristina Hoeppner: 12:53

How do you then also work with other faculty in your school? Do you have regular catch-ups where you discuss things like portfolios?

Patsie Polly: 13:02

It's interesting, it's not regular. When a reflective piece is about to be integrated, I get asked a lot about how to do that. Now at the university, we're talking more and more about ePortfolio pedagogy and practice. So I'm talking across the uni, not only in my own school and faculty. Faculty of Medicine has always been a big sponsor and advocate of portfolio practice. Stakeholders there are not hard to convince, and also in the arts: not hard to convince. Now I'm working across the university to get more of a system approach to integration and implementation, and that's been good. Stakeholders come and ask as they need it. Once all of this gets ironed out, we'll be able to have more of a standardised approach.

Kristina Hoeppner: 13:49

That'll also give you then a bit more support in implementing portfolios, trying new things out, and working with others to explore the space.

Patsie Polly: 13:58

Yeah, I mean, I'm still there. I refuse to let go of the pedagogy. Big fan, and it ebbs and flows this portfolio interest, let's call it for it, but it's still there because it's a high impact practice that can't be ignored.

Kristina Hoeppner: 14:12

Also I think with the professionalisation and lots of professions needing to create something that resembles a portfolio, it will be a mainstay, and we don't just see that with teachers and with nurses, with doctors, all who have professional frameworks, but also bet many others that they need to demonstrate what they have actually been doing and need to demonstrate that they can learn from what they have been doing.

Patsie Polly: 14:40

Yeah, it happens a lot. I was at HERDSA, and we were talking about the professional degree programmes in health science need to have a portfolio of activities that's visible to be accredited, to be an exercise physiologist or a nurse or whatever it might be, in terms of professions.

Kristina Hoeppner: 14:59

So Patsie, what excites you most right now about portfolios? You have been practising with portfolios since 2012, and so 12 years on, what keeps you going?

Patsie Polly: 15:13

At present, it's a whole talk about programmatic assessment, systemic assessment, the call for assessment structure review in light of AI. So for me, AI has been an interesting game changer. Everyone's sort of fearful, but it's change. You know, when the internet came in, everyone was worried about that. Same idea. AI is in there, but it's a tool, it's a practice, it's a way of engaging with technology that we have to get used to. The AI has probably rocked it or catalysed the system a bit to get us thinking properly about programmatic assessment and systemic assessment. I think portfolios are perfectly place for this. It's a good thing for us, I think, as a solution or a way forward for recognising areas of authentic learning for students, and how it can be captured in a system, an ecosystem at the university. I'm excited about that. I hope it really has its day. I hope the ePortfolio has come to save the day.

Kristina Hoeppner: 16:15

Not just for courses, but I mean, you've also been using it for career development, and it is for learning, for assessment, for professional certifications, so many different use cases that we can think of, so that it should be in all of them and should be present everywhere. I'll also add links to the resources that you mentioned, including also the high impact practice, because that is terminology that comes from AAC&U in the United States, the American Association of Colleges and Universities. Is there anything though that you would like to be able to do with portfolios that you currently can't?

Patsie Polly: 16:52

We've always talked about badging systems sitting within portfolios, and I do love badging systems. But I would love to see a warranted, data rich badging system that is integrated into a portfolio. So we have the concept of badges coming in, but there are things that we can do with badges and have data sets that sit behind them that create more meaning to that icon. I think that's very important. I'd also like to see a better networking of artefacts across the portfolio. An ePortfolio is still a little bit too linear in my liking. I'd prefer to be able to take artefacts from many areas within the portfolio and not so much rework them or re-imagine them, but talk about them as this crystallised set of things that have happened for a student. That light bulb moment may not have happened from one event, it would have happened from a few things coming together. Learning is integrated. So I'd like to see that. I don't know how it's going to happen. I don't know if it's just a system of tagging, tagging various artefacts to bring them together, to reposition them, to support a case that students may make for learning that might be the way to go. But I'd like to see that.

Kristina Hoeppner: 18:07

Maybe also some visualisation so that once you've tagged your content, you can see the connections between it. Maybe that's also an area where AI can then help to surface some of those things that you don't necessarily see immediately yourself, especially when you have lots and lots of artefacts in your personal portfolio space to surface that so that we can then reflect on it.

Patsie Polly: 18:32

I agree. I mean, that's where the AI can be the partner, and you know, work with the user to enhance their portfolio of pedagogy or portfolio system.

Kristina Hoeppner: 18:43

Is there anything else you'd like to share that we have not yet touched on?

Patsie Polly: 18:49

I think the bit that I love the most is that portfolios come in and out of fashion, but they're still here. I don't know, it's consistent in that the message is, it's a high impact practice. It can be shaped according to the need, and I think that's why it comes in and out of fashion. That formative cycle that Kate and I talked about in our blog is about keeping that learning real and it's ongoing and it's authentic and the place where we can visualise that or where it can come together is that portfolio. It's your space. I love the idea of a portfolio of practice and the ongoing aspect of it. It stays with you. It's your identity. It stays with you, and people need to understand that this is a digital identity that they are forming, not just a profile on a page.

Kristina Hoeppner: 19:37

I think also what you've said earlier, Patsie, about your portfolio practice essentially not really having changed so much because the pedagogy is very solid, even if it comes and goes, you can still get back into it because the fundamentals are there, and that's also why I think it makes it a high impact practice because it's not a fashionable practice. It's not one of the things we do for one year and then forget about it entirely. But no, it stays there. It is continuously important, it just comes down to how much it is then also being used at the different institutions.

Patsie Polly: 20:13

Agreed. It's very versatile in its usefulness. It depends on the practitioner and how they apply it in their classroom or their programme, but it has many aspects that are useful.

Kristina Hoeppner: 20:24

That takes us to our quick answer round now, Patsie. The last three questions for you for today, but I also look forward to catching up with you in one way or another at the upcoming Eportfolio Forum. But now, last three questions for you, Patsie. Which words do you use to describe portfolio work?

Patsie Polly: 20:44

I've got engaging, it's habitual, and it's transformable. But I also like to talk about identity. For me, it's a big identitying piece.

Kristina Hoeppner: 20:54

What tip do you have for learning or education designers or instructors who create portfolio activities?

Patsie Polly: 21:03

The simplest thing, which is exactly what I've done is have a task, be it authentic or not, an authentic is a better task, authentic assessment task, and link an activity to it, whether it's an evaluation or reflection, it could be anything as long as it's linked to that task so students start to make sense of what that task could mean or what effect it had on them as learners.

Kristina Hoeppner: 21:27

Now, on the other side, what advice do you have for portfolio authors, for our learners and students?

Patsie Polly: 21:35

As Kate and I mentioned in our blog, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. It's process driven, it's ongoing, it produces deep thinking because as a process you have to keep working at it. The more you work at something, the deeper your understanding gets. Deep thinking produces deep doing. In the end, in order to produce a sound, high quality product, one needs to invest in a robust, continuous process. That's what underpins the ePortfolio process.

Kristina Hoeppner: 22:09

That actually also mirrors what Allison Miller had said recently in her podcast episode that it is also a process for her. So it's really good to have that reiterated because oftentimes, of course, we do focus more on the product than the passes, but in this case, the process is actually the important thing.

Patsie Polly: 22:28

It takes time, but it's worthwhile.

Kristina Hoeppner: 22:30

Speaking of time, thank you so much, Patsie, for yours, for spending part of your day with me and then in extension also with our listeners so that we can learn from you and see also as an example of how portfolios can be used in biomedicine. Thank you so much.

Patsie Polly: 22:50

Thank you, Kristina.

Kristina Hoeppner: 22:52

Now over to our listeners. What do you want to try in your own portfolio practice? This was 'Create. Share. Engage.' with Dr Patsie Polly. Head to our website podcast.mahara.org where you can find resources and the transcript for this episode. This podcast is produced by Catalyst IT, and I'm your host Kristina Hoeppner, Project Lead and Product Manager of the portfolio platform Mahara. Our next episode will air in two weeks. I hope you'll listen again and tell a colleague about our podcast so they can subscribe. Until then, create, share, and engage.