Kristina Hoeppner: 0:05

Welcome to'Create. Share. Engage.' This is the podcast about portfolios for learning and more for educators, learning designers, and managers keen on integrating portfolios with their education and professional development practices. 'Create. Share. Engage.' is brought to you by the Mahara team at Catalyst IT. My name is Kristina Hoeppner. Today I actually have a really special guest because I have the pleasure of talking with Chahira Nouira from Georg-August-Universität Göttingen in Germany whom I've met online about three years ago when she interviewed me for a podcast episode of hers in regards to open educational resources. But we've been online buddies before that. We've seen each other on social media, and so it's been absolutely fantastic to actually meet her in person [Chahira laughs] now in Berlin at the Online Educa Berlin. And so thank you so much, Chahira, for making time for another session after your session today.

Chahira Nouira: 1:08

Thanks for having me. The pleasure is all mine. It's really good to see you live here in Berlin. Thank you.

Kristina Hoeppner: 1:14

It's so good to catch up with people in person rather than only seeing text typed online, and especially with our time zone difference, it does make it quite difficult to speak in person. So I really appreciate that I can ask you a lot of questions today.

Chahira Nouira: 1:30

Thank you[laughs].

Kristina Hoeppner: 1:31

Why are you here at OEB? You've actually presented here at the conference. What was your topic about?

Chahira Nouira: 1:37

I realised I've been coming to this conference since 15 years now on a regular basis, and this was the first time that I had a session on my own, and it was in a panel about 360 degree immersive technologies for a higher education. So together with another colleague, we were here sharing our experiences, our scenarios in teaching and learning using 360 degrees cameras, and it was quite an interesting session. We had a lot of good feedback, also challenging questions, and that's part of the things that I do at my job with the digital learning and teaching team. It was really nice to be able to share ideas and get new ones.

Kristina Hoeppner: 2:15

As a member of a digital learning team, you're not just dealing with one technology, but with a lot of technologies. So it's really fantastic to see that you're not just working with portfolios, but also with technology that is not as easily accessible to a regular person, but that can have really nice implications for teaching and especially creating those immersive environments. So what is your role in that centre for teaching and learning then at your university in Göttingen?

Chahira Nouira: 2:43

I am an instructional designer, and basically what that means in the things that I do, is try to help our teaching staff to get better use, meaningful use of technology. So that ranges from using the learning management systems in a more efficient but also meaningful way for our students, it is about learning design so everything related to the courses online, but and especially in an international context, what I've been doing so far under the internationalisation of the curriculum, trying to set up rooms for exchange between partners and partners, be it with the teachers, like creating spaces for co-teaching, but also for exchange. Many people would use the term 'virtual exchange', but I think, what can define more what we have been doing so far is more collaborative online learning and teaching. So my role ranges really from supporting teachers and students indirectly. Our target group is mainly our teaching staff. I try to help them also navigate different types of technologies to give them the support that they need to be able to use that because sometimes it takes more than just plug and play to have the discussions around why actually this technology and not another one or the other way around, how the technologies that are available at the university or the platform of the universities can be useful to support the learning objectives, a certain learning journey. What we do have in common at the end of the day is not the technology, but our students. And so, yeah, try to support our teachers, teaching staff with whatever comes our way, with platforms, innovations, technologies, so we can have a meaningful learning journey.

Kristina Hoeppner: 4:28

How many teachers do you then support?

Chahira Nouira: 4:30

We are a team of 14 right now. We're under a umbrella team that is dealing with digitalisation in teaching and learning, but anyone at the university, can just knock the door, it means actually writing a tickets, saying, 'I have that problem, can you help me solve that?' Or the other way around. We try to present our services and our trainings, and then everyone can book, like, say, a training how to use a learning management system or a portfolio platform or basically try to connect with other teachers who have done experiences. It's a big university. We are around 27,000 students, and to my knowledge, we have around 2,500 plus teaching staff.

Kristina Hoeppner: 5:16

That's a lot to support just with about 14 people.

Chahira Nouira: 5:18

Yeah, that's why we try to also, you know, in the sense of scalability, create resources that they actually can consult themselves and see if they can come further. What we also do is try to create the equivalent of what most of the German university have, 'Tag der Lehre', the day of teaching, which we have as well, but when we started an initiative called'Get[IN]spired', and that's really about what we do in general, but then also trying to zoom in on, for example, the use of videos in teaching, the use of audios. What are we doing with assessment? Because we have a dedicated team amongst these 14, four to five people who do e-assessment, and so it's a really a long day, but then the possibility to dig deeper into a few of the scenarios we offer and also discuss a little bit ways right now on our teaching staff minds. We started this initiative last year, and this year we had over 100 teachers coming at the beginning of the semester, which also coincidentally was the beginning of the vacation at schools, and that's also an element. But I think last year we had 50. I hope this is becoming a more - event where more and more people can come because apart from us being able to present our services and the scenarios linked to that there is this room of exchanging, and we have been observing through the years that peer talk, peer - also not so much evaluation - I see that our teachers would listen to their peer differently. They, of course, would ask for our advice and listen to it, but then they see it from another, similar perspective when a colleague of theirs who's also teaching, it's not any more, like, 'I'd like to take advice, but like, 'How did you do it?' So it's another level. And what we also observe is that they become multipliers and say, 'I use that platform, and it was challenging this way, but I could achieve this and that.' I think that the credibility is, I wouldn't say stronger, but it's more relatable.

Kristina Hoeppner: 7:24

That's exactly the word that I was going to say that it is more relatable because they don't have to do such a big transfer of here's somebody in a completely different subject to me, or yeah, of course, she knows it because she's the learning technologist, but they see it on terms that they are used to. That's why, also case studies and having champions in the individual faculties, I think, is so...

Chahira Nouira: 7:47

... absolutely crucial. Very, very important.

Kristina Hoeppner: 7:50

So you already mentioned the portfolios that you're supporting them. How did you get started with portfolios yourself?

Chahira Nouira: 7:58

I think I was observing in my community different people using portfolios and also championing specific platforms. The first encounter in my current job was with a course at the theology faculty where there was this Master's of Intercultural Theology, very, very international, very interesting, because it was not only about the Christian faith, but many other religion studies. The professor decided that one of the best ways to capture the journey that the students are doing is to let them create portfolios because it's a master's that has also a very long period of time where the students were having a very practical, in the field, time before they write actually their thesis. The idea behind that was, it would be really such a pity to wait until the end and ask them to reflect on their journey where they stayed, like, if I stay in the Christian faith, very often the practical period of time or the visit on the field would be with the community in a church or serving a specific community and then the assignment that they would get would be actually reflecting on that and how that's different from where they're coming, etc. And so the professor has been tinkering with many ideas in that regard, and I think the first time, a colleague and I just went ahead and talked to the students about the benefits of portfolios and how they could do it and how they could support them. From there, the other encounter that also was on another level because we had to make a decision if portfolio is something that our teachers want, should we invest in a platform? What's going on out there? And I think two of my colleagues reached out to many who have been using this sort of platform, and that was like, okay, I think a lot of people we know and others in German universities have been doing their experiences, and it was learning about portfolios from others before we decide which platform we go. So that was that second important encounter. And from that point on, what was interesting is that many, we have about 500 institutes within 13 faculties at the university, and that goes from the humanities to the natural sciences, and I had the chance to accompany, together with my colleagues, different subjects ranging from music to forest sciences, without forgetting the students that go to the cycle to become teachers and so very, very different disciplines, yet they had something in common is that the teaching staff cared a lot about giving the students a little bit more time to reflect about what they're doing. And a few of them were like, 'Okay, if they're gonna work together on a project, then we need to give them also space to be able to do that and then walk away from this final exam. Let's be more formative than have them stand in front of us and then tell us, like, cram whatever, the whole semester within 30 minutes.' So a real desire of the teaching staff to 'let's explore this and know that our students have chances to do something different.'

Kristina Hoeppner: 11:19

Does that mean then, actually, that portfolios are embedded across the university?

Chahira Nouira: 11:25

I wouldn't say that this is happening systematically across the whole university. I think there are people that have been doing this in fields, also the intercultural competences. When I think about that, there is a whole training, and they've always went the way of the portfolio because it's also about students going abroad and coming back, and so there was this whole learning journey with parts that need to be reported that makes sense, that was always there. And these are modules that are not mandatory. I feel like that was, if I'm not mistaking, the start because also when it comes to the regulation of the exams, there is more flexibility in there. Those who have been trying, I would say, adventurous, are the ones who had also elective courses, but where the form of exam was in the past, and when I say in the past, the last few years, very clear about an oral exam, like there has to be a date for an exam. There is a shift actually happening there because there is a real, as I said, the idea behind that, it's like, let's make this really meaningful and have the students have fun and enjoy and learn something. I think it's not that easy to change regulations for the exams, but there are many things you have to do a process because then the quality needs to be ensured. But I think there is also a will of trying to be flexible, not for the sake of being cool, but for the sake of like, 'okay, if this is an advantage for our students, and we don't see the decreasing quality, and we have the support for that, the technologies rather supporting them, as in the students, then let's try it.' But it requires initiative from the individuals. And again, I talked about how it's important that peers can make this visible. In the forest sciences, there was a course about drones from how is a drone actually made? What are the components to what kind of data can we actually use, and how useful is that when we are working in the forest, etc.? That course was made in collaboration with two or three teachers, and they decided,'okay, we're gonna give the groups any of these themes that have to work about, and it's very visual. They have to take pictures. We might as well give them a chance to write about it as if they were writing a blog.' We all know that the term 'blog' is not necessarily well appreciated in academia, but for me, there were two things that happened there. This is a medium that is helpful because our students know it, and if the criteria we give them, the guidelines that we give them, to produce something of value, then we're not any more in this negative connotation of blog, social media, not serious. Here again, it's really three teachers that decided, 'let's meet our students where they are and elevate that because we were in the academic context and see how it works.' Our role was actually just to try to explain how it technically works and the possibilities. We didn't want to overwhelm them, and I think it worked. And so the beautiful thing is that very often we won't hear about the courses again, which doesn't mean that they have abandoned the idea, but it means that they're on the way to having this integrated. The integration comes really from single initiatives that want to do that in their faculties, and the more they are visible, the more there are chances that it's integrated on the higher level, step by step.

Kristina Hoeppner: 15:04

Yeah, step by step. And then also, really you highlighted the willingness to change. With portfolios, I think that really cannot be underestimated that it does take time, that it does take careful planning, then that's where your team is coming in with the experience you have that you can assist the educators who know their subject, that you help them with a pedagogy.

Chahira Nouira: 15:27

Yeah, that's basically what we do. The other thing that helps a lot also is that very often we have teachers who have been trying out bits and pieces when it comes to the use of the learning management system, the integration of a few more things outside of their regular exam. You know, it's trying to go to more formative assessment. The more they spend time doing that, the more they realise it does take time. And so my feeling is that when they come to us after having tried a few things out, they have a clearer vision about what they really want to achieve, but also a realistic estimation about the time that they want to make. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that most of the teachers are not willing to make the time. It's just in this situation that we are in now a trade off. What do you do? There is only limited time, only limited energy. How much do you want to tweak? How much do you want to change to reach your goals? Sometimes tweaking the delivery mode or choosing portfolio or something else is just not happening in that time. That's also where we come in because very often technology aside, and even pedagogy aside, trying to understand what is happening, what do the students need, in relation also to the whole curriculum, we can be more mindful about the whole situation and have a better vision what they actually want to do because we are in a very lucky position that we work with our teachers throughout the university, we have use cases that we see in one faculty and not one other, and then very often, that is very inspiring. And so we talk about that someone coming from the sciences, the natural sciences, would say, 'Everything that's happening in the humanities is actually not relevant for me.' Well, you would be surprised. Very often things come from other fields because they find the common, I would call it mission of teaching and pedagogy, didactics being the common denominator. And it's very selfishly speaking, very gratifying. And you get to share that also not from a perspective of a teaching person, but from someone who had the chance to accompany and support other projects. With the initiative 'Get[IN]spired' it's also what we're hinting at, not really selling our services, but really highlighting what are the teachers that we working with actually doing? It works because that's the space where you also get to reflect, exchange, and yeah, that's regardless of portfolio or not. But it works in the case of portfolio even more important because there is this hesitation, 'is this a format that is actually recognised by the university? Is this a format that actually the students would like? How much time is this going to cost me?'

Kristina Hoeppner: 18:14

Those are three important questions, and then also you are, I think, in the perfect position because you can make those connections amongst the instructors and connect them, show them somebody has done it similarly, either in the same department or somewhere else because everything flows into your unit, and you can then talk about it.

Chahira Nouira: 18:33

Yeah, we actually try very hard.

Kristina Hoeppner: 18:34

What type of portfolios do your teaching staff typically work with? It sounds like a lot of assessment portfolios that they are fully integrated into the course.

Chahira Nouira: 18:45

Yes. Yes.

Kristina Hoeppner: 18:46

Is it also showcase portfolios where the students then might go into an internship or take it into an internship or to get an internship?

Chahira Nouira: 18:54

From what I understood regarding the intercultural competence training, the idea behind that is that they when they go abroad, it's also kind of a set of skills they have while they're outside, but it's also something that they can take with them and to prove that they have knowledge about it for internships when they go looking for a job. So that's also going into the showcase. For the assessment that's, I think, most of them do that, but then, even if the assessment comes first, we very often receive the question that 'I'd like to embed that on my website or in the CV.' And so it's both. It's just the priority is different. In the musicology case, it's a very reflective way because it was not so much about recreating the museum of musical instruments, but trying to have a read of the way they are presented in a very critical manner because apparently there are methods of how musical instruments are showcased, and it's very often very Europe centric one, but it appears that if you take that a little bit broader, there are many ways of doing this.

Kristina Hoeppner: 20:11

Showcasing a musical instrument in which way?

Chahira Nouira: 20:14

I understood from that is that there is a read through history and also through the origin of the instrument, then that makes it so that when you create that portfolio, it's not any more description about the musical instrument, but in a whole context. And that context, we think that museums should be built in that way, but it turns out it's not. It's just a method that everyone followed. It's a very critical way of looking at things, even though, for someone who looks from outside, what are you talking about? I mean, these are the strings instruments. It's like, if I'm doing building that portfolio, I am first showcasing the instruments, but their history, but also how they're connected to each other. And then, of course, I don't know all the details, but for me, that was a very interesting and intriguing case. So it was used for assessment because it was an assignment, but at the end of the day, if you look at the portfolio and the way it was set up, it gives you another perspective and a very critical view about one aspect of the musicology, in this case, the instruments.

Kristina Hoeppner: 21:23

And the third one is, you're now also reflecting on what you have known and known as just being the default or normal. And now question, okay, what are other string instruments that I know of? Why aren't they represented? Why are they represented?

Chahira Nouira: 21:38

Absolutely. I think it's a fascinating way that goes beyond just creating pages on the internet of describing a certain musical instrument. I am sure people who are listening thinking like,'Oh, that's very, very interesting. I'd like to dig into that.' And my background is not in musicology [both laugh], so I admit that I've been learning much more from this experience than anything that I gave to our colleague and the students. But it's been fascinating how you could see there are all these categories of portfolio, but at the end of the day, most of them are overlapping and serving many purposes. I think it's good to know what kind of portfolio so you can focus on the objectives, but also your target group, but it's almost thrilling when you see how many purposes they actually serve.

Kristina Hoeppner: 22:27

Yeah, and also for one other area of interest for you that we haven't actually mentioned yet [Chahira laughs], which is open educational resources, it's also that entire idea of remixing and recycling, mixing and matching up. And so yes, if the students can use a portfolio for assessment purposes, but then also use elements of it, of course, not the entire portfolio, but elements of it, and work it into something different, then that's fantastic and also efficient for the student.

Chahira Nouira: 22:57

I absolutely agree, and this reminds me also

Kristina Hoeppner: 22:59

they also see that? Do they want to get that of the time where one of our teachers said, 'I'd want all of feedback themselves? Or what do they think about the portfolio the students to be able to look at the other projects.' What was important for him that the boundaries of 'this is your work?

Chahira Nouira: 23:09

In my observation, and I think this is group, you're gonna write together with this group, but I want you also to look at the others. Make critical but constructive feedback, get inspired. Some of them might be further than you when it comes to design, and that's okay. The themes might be different, but they all actually fit together.' And so there was this, and I repeat this again and again, we're starting from the being intentionally focused on what is meaningful for our students and having them have a sneak peek into the others and like, 'Hey, that's really cool.' Or 'I think I would have done this differently.' And 'we're not just submitting to the teaching staff, the teachers, but we are finding the space where we're encouraged to look at each other.' I find that, of course, this is possible in whatever way you choose to teach, but this is also, while I'm working, I can look at the others and then continue, and I think that flexibility we do have, it's in this spirit of creating a portfolio, I find that fascinating. not statistically representative, is it really depends on the spaces you create for them. If it's encouraged to do so, then it's almost as part of the assignment because depending on, like for this drone course, you had bachelor students, master students, so that was a whole range. They weren't all at the same level, which was actually very positive because you had people who had done this before in other disciplines, and they had their experience and new to portfolio, but they're very interested in the subject. So that was also important. The interests of the students doing that and finding that,'hey, this is cool', is very different from cohort to cohort, and I think maybe one of the things we should pay attention more to is evaluations or surveys that go into that direction. I don't think we know enough about how it's perceived because I think the evaluations go to and not so much about one method or the portfolio, but the whole course or the lecture. And so I think that gets lost in translation very often. Maybe Let me know once you've had the chance... one indicator is to see how many people actually do submit in the electives where that's only one part. You know, they have to do many other things, like complete the internship, do whatever paper, do something, an oral exam, and then the portfolio. And I think when students do the portfolio and although they have many other things and they're being creative, I think that's one indicator, and the other one is actually how active they are in giving each other comments. We, as supporting our teaching staff and teaching staff are inspired by the research, also the use cases, and so there is science behind that, but it would be actually very nice and useful to have the feedback from the students. Yeah.

Kristina Hoeppner: 26:17

... to do that research, and then we can talk again.

Chahira Nouira: 26:20

Sure.

Kristina Hoeppner: 26:21

At your university, forestry students are using portfolios, musicology students are using portfolios. Those are not really typically the first subjects who come to mind to use portfolios. So it's really good to learn of more of them because we have teaching and nursing or health sciences in general, engineers are also using it, and political scientists are now using it, geography students are using it. So it's also good to see that musicology as well as also forestry, but really also give our listeners the idea that it's not subject dependent. You could also find ways of incorporating a portfolio meaningfully by documenting and then also reflecting on learning.

Chahira Nouira: 27:04

Yes, it's definitely possible, even in the disciplines that you would think of the least.

Kristina Hoeppner: 27:09

Do you have any more exotic disciplines?

Chahira Nouira: 27:12

I think the theology one, the one that we started with, the intercultural competences, and I'm sure I'm forgetting so many. As I said, I'm not the only one who is in touch with our teaching staff about portfolios. I don't think there is a typical discipline or faculty that is more suitable than another one for portfolio. I think everyone should just give it a try, and it's okay if it doesn't work, but then at least find out if that's helpful. One of the things that fascinates me most, and I think technology makes that possible, is to give students the possibility to build something that they can reflect upon. A lot of people would say, 'Well, isn't that ridiculous? What you build when you're starting at university is different from what you build on your master's level, and then so things are no use.' Well, I must disagree. One thing that is useful is to see the evolution, the progress that you made. For me to be able to really see that, and I intentionally use the word'see', then I think that's a big win. And of course, if it's useful for assessment, yeah, sure, but then giving the students the possibility that they can see what they create, they can see what they can build, I think that's one of the competences, or the skills, and we need to give our students more, and that builds their confidence. That builds also the relatability of what they are studying and the reality that they live in.

Kristina Hoeppner: 28:42

And also that they see their progress and how they do get better. Therefore, also, no, yes, this course of study is actually useful for me because I am approving over time or changing my opinion. I'm doing something different now. We don't want students that are exactly the same at the end like they were at the start, then we haven't actually taught them anything. They haven't learned anything.

Chahira Nouira: 29:05

Portfolios can be a good barometer for looking at one's evolution in terms of building something, creating something, and changing your mind and learning, a true journey of learning.

Kristina Hoeppner: 29:17

I'm just fascinated by having learned more that portfolios not just now, but they have already been used in musicology and forestry. That's so amazing. Thank you for sharing that, Chahira.

Chahira Nouira: 29:29

Thank you for giving me the chance to do that.

Kristina Hoeppner: 29:32

Now on to our last three questions, which are the same for everybody in the quick answer round, as you know already. What three words do you typically use to describe portfolio work?

Chahira Nouira: 29:44

I would say journey, specifically learning journey. I would use creativity, but then also, I can't help associating formative assessment as in a continuity and not waiting until the last minute.

Kristina Hoeppner: 29:59

Now what tip do you have for educators, be that your instructors or maybe also a new learning technologist that joins your team in regards to creating portfolio activities?

Chahira Nouira: 30:14

I would say if there is any chance that you think that this format can serve your students, go for it. Don't spend too much time on thinking about, 'Oh, this is going to be so different. It's going to be not the favourite format for the exam rules.' Don't let the fear discourage you from trying it out. And ask someone who's been doing that. Find someone at your faculty who tried it out. Of course, come to us, we will give you advice, but give yourself a chance to try it out, but then just don't do it because you heard about someone doing that. Think about what is it? Is it useful for me? And I ask someone who has experience with that, and chances are that you get into it. I will never sell you anything related with technology that will immediately save you time because that's not true. But with time, if you try these things out, you don't have to put the same amount of effort along this journey of learning about portfolios. It's going to be always at the beginning, there's some cost that you need to invest in there, time, mainly. In a nutshell, if it makes sense to you, just give it a try.

Kristina Hoeppner: 31:27

I hope lots of your educators from the university are listening to this and take you up on that invitation to come to you for advice, whether then it turns out to be portfolios or not that is yet to be seen

Chahira Nouira: 31:40

Absolutely.

Kristina Hoeppner: 31:41

One of the tools in your toolkit.

Chahira Nouira: 31:43

Yeah.

Kristina Hoeppner: 31:43

We've had advice now for our educators. So what advice do you have for portfolio authors, be that students, but maybe also some of your staff are creating portfolios for themselves?

Chahira Nouira: 31:56

It's the same thing. Don't let yourself be discouraged or overwhelmed by all the possibilities that you have. Start small. If it's about creating a page that describes what you're doing, think about the bullet points, write that down, choose a picture that relates to what you want to highlight, and start. Don't wait too long to show it to someone, to give you an idea about not the design necessarily, because very often you have actually tools that give you templates. Use them. Use the templates. They're good. And if you need to adjust, it's always fine. And again, feedback. Don't wait too long until you show it to someone. If you have the chance to work in a group, be curious. Don't let someone who's been working with portfolio, do it all for you, and then just be explorative. This sounds very like just do it. It's so easy. Sometimes it can be overwhelming. But then get advice. The most important thing is just to start doing it.

Kristina Hoeppner: 32:54

Thank you so much.

Chahira Nouira: 32:55

Thank you.

Kristina Hoeppner: 32:56

I really appreciate it [Chahira laughs] that we could do this impromptu interview with you today and take the opportunity to be in the same time zone, in the same city, and also at the same event to finally meet. Thank you so much, Chahira.

Chahira Nouira: 33:10

It's all my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Kristina Hoeppner: 33:13

Now over to our listeners. What do you want to try in your own portfolio practice? This was 'Create. Share. Engage.' with Chahira Nouira. Head to our website podcast.mahara.org where you can find resources and the transcript for this episode. This podcast is produced by Catalyst IT, and I'm your host, Kristina Hoeppner, Project Lead and Product Manager of the portfolio platform Mahara. Our next episode will air in two weeks. I hope you will listen again and tell a colleague about our podcast so they can subscribe. Until then, create, share, and engage.