Kristina Hoeppner: 0:05

Welcome to'Create. Share. Engage.' This is the podcast about portfolios for learning and more for educators, learning designers, and managers keen on integrating portfolios with their education and professional development practices. 'Create. Share. Engage.' is brought to you by the Mahara team at Catalyst IT. My name is Kristina Hoeppner. Today I'm speaking with Dr Sue Schibeci from Macquarie University in Sydney in Australia. She's been a member of the AAEEBL Digital Ethics Task Force for a year now, and I've had the pleasure of working with her over that time. So I'm really excited to have this catch-up with her where she can share more on her practice of using portfolios in work-integrated learning contexts. Welcome to the

Sue Schibeci: 0:58

Thanks so much, Kristina, for the invitation. podcast, Sue.

Kristina Hoeppner: 1:02

Sue, what do you do at Macquarie University?

Sue Schibeci: 1:05

My official title is Work-Integrated Learning Partner, and specifically within the sciences. The role is to bring together our work-integrated learning programme, which is compulsory for all undergraduate students that will be the administrative aspects of it. There's a lot of administration within work-integrated learning, as well as the partners. It's just forming relationships between academics, partners, and the administration of all of that.

Kristina Hoeppner: 1:37

When did you start using portfolios?

Sue Schibeci: 1:39

Portfolios, I've been using them since perhaps 2012 to 2013, and I actually did start in Mahara. That was to do with a course that I was teaching at UNSW. It was a professional development course, more or less, for students in science. We were trying to get the students to reflect on any of the content that we had within their professional development and how they thought that they were going with those.

Kristina Hoeppner: 2:09

You had spent a good time of your career at University of New South Wales before moving to Macquarie, right?

Sue Schibeci: 2:16

That's right. I still feel as if I'm a little bit of a newbie because there's been so many people that are so adept. You, for example, all of the people within ePortfolios Australia Organising Committee, those sort of committees, there's so many people that are just amazing practitioners of ePortfolios.

Kristina Hoeppner: 2:37

Yeah. So our focus today, Sue, is looking at the portfolio practice within work-integrated learning, your speciality area. Previously to joining Macquarie University, you had used portfolios in that context. Why are they part of WIL (work-integrated learning) for you?

Sue Schibeci: 2:59

Work-integrated learning is essentially an experiential learning process. Fundamentally, part of that experiential learning cycle is reflection. That reflective practice is really important for students, and I'm specifically talking about students here, higher education students, to think about how they're developing in the particular professional skills and attributes that they are trying to develop within their experience. Everybody reflects, you know, we do it naturally. We think about what's happened, what we'll take away from it, but that deliberate reflection and thinking about the process that you've just been through is really important to further development. So I guess a transformative aspect of learning within an experience.

Kristina Hoeppner: 3:49

Which then also helps making it possible for that learning to be made visible and brought to the forefront, so that the reflection doesn't just happen in our head. As you say, we are reflecting all the time, we are always changing how we've been doing something based on prior experience, but with the portfolio, we then, in a way, externalise that from our mind and can also share it with others.

Sue Schibeci: 4:12

That's, I think the really important thing is, students will practice their skills within a work-integrated learning experience. What they can do with that then, if they record the evidence within a portfolio, they can bring it to a work interview to actually demonstrate that they've practised and they've developed a particular skill that is required for that position at some stage.

Kristina Hoeppner: 4:39

What does the portfolio look like in one of the experiences that you've guided your students in? How did you integrate it? What are some of the practicalities that somebody who hasn't used portfolios for internships or practicums or the like might want to explore?

Sue Schibeci: 4:59

So what I really like the students to do is for them to first start to think about what they want to get out of the experience. So it's a goal setting exercise. They have to think about the skills that they anticipate that they're going to use. The thing about that is they will use millions more skills within that experience, but the way they can focus is to have those goals at the beginning, and it makes it like a North Star. It keeps them anchored to a particular focus. What then I do is get them to think about those particular skills and as they're going through the experience to gather evidence that they've practised it, they've developed in it in some way. So it can be the smallest thing, but the process, I think, is the most important thing. So thinking about while you're doing it, the old reflection in practice. That gives them the opportunity to change direction, if need be, to build upon it, if they've actually achieved what their original goal was, or to think about a new direction. They have those goals to begin with, and they have that process, and that gets them to reflect on how they're doing within the experience. That's my approach to setting ePortfolios within a work-integrated learning experience.

Kristina Hoeppner: 6:26

That can be quite a bit for the students to do, to think about the goals and then document their progress throughout their internship. And of course, some internships or practicums are only a week or two, whereas others might be a month or half a year long. What support measures do or did you then have in place?

Sue Schibeci: 6:46

Yes, you're right in that that it's quite a lot of work. My approach as the instructor is to give them regular feedback, to get them to think about things, ask them questions about the direction that they're going in, is this where you wanted to be at this stage? Is there anything else you can do to build on to it? I do realise it's a lot of work for them, but I think also it's beneficial in the end because they've got that building process of how they're going within that skill.

Kristina Hoeppner: 7:19

I love that you engage in that portfolio with your students so that they are not just creating the portfolio and then you view it, but that you do have that collaborative element in there of giving feedback or making comments, and they can then respond to that in order to build on top of that conversation, which then might also lead them deeper into their reflection.

Sue Schibeci: 7:44

Indeed, yes. When I think be my difficulty within my current role. I have had the luxury of having students one on one. I was always able to do that for individual students. I think there are perhaps ways of engaging regularly throughout at whatever scale. We just haven't got there quite yet. I think AI might be the answer to that[laughs], but we're still exploring that at the moment.

Kristina Hoeppner: 8:21

Yeah, speaking of AI in the interview with Prof Dr Mike Altieri from OTH Amberg-Weiden, that is the previous episode, he does use the reflection bot Riff that was developed by Dr Leticia Britos Cavagnaro at the d.school at Stanford University to help with the reflection and personalise the reflecting questions for his students so that they get into that deeper reflection. He gives an initial question, then the students typically summarise, and then Riff asks questions based on the reflective model and therefore guides the students more deeply into it so that he, as instructor, doesn't have to do that for every single student or go with fixed questions that he said didn't work out so well for him.

Sue Schibeci: 9:13

Riff is something that I've been thinking about since you introduced it to me, and how we could possibly make some sort of model like that that we can give that feedback continuously or regularly at least. The problem with it is, and it's probably just limited by my imagination at the moment, is work-integrated learning requires assessment. The way to do it, I think, is to use that part of it as some sort of formative assessment, but you're assigning some mark to it. Working out how to do that using an AI platform like Riff and extracting some sort of meaningful grade level of achievement, something like that is what I'm currently thinking about.

Kristina Hoeppner: 10:01

That is something that we can then explore in year seven of the Digital Ethics Task Force in an online workshop and see how others have been doing that, what others are thinking, and what possibilities might be around that incorporation of the AI prompts and questions, and then what the students have in that reflection, whether they use the summary or the entire conversation or summarise it themselves or any of that. Sue, you said you support your students with feedback questions, you read their portfolios, and then ask them further questions. Do you also give them something like a template so that they know what is expected of them to go into their portfolio because it is also tied to assessment tasks for them?

Sue Schibeci: 10:51

I give them a rubric for the final mark. I'm very torn about templates because I'm torn between that organic, creative, personalised product at the end, or, you know, as they're going through, and then against them being free reign [laughs] and being confused and not being able to focus with what they've got. I guess what I'm saying is, I hope, and I think it's worked in most cases, I hope that the goals at the beginning give them some sort of framework to what they're actually focusing on, along with the feedback. That regular feedback, I think, is important because it's quite bespoke. It's personalised to what they're experiencing at that time.

Kristina Hoeppner: 11:41

Templates, gosh. We've got the entire spectrum from 'Yes, I love templates' to 'No, I wouldn't use it at all.' Yeah, it depends on the context that you are in, also whether the creation of the portfolio from scratch is part of the grade, or whether you are going for something like compliance where you do need to have certain elements in the portfolio and the portfolio is a bit more prescribed. So your students, from what you have seen, for them, it works not going with a template. Have they given you any feedback in general around creating a portfolio as part of their work-integrated learning experience?

Sue Schibeci: 12:19

Only anecdotal comments, usually to the point of, 'It's been good, it's been worthwhile me reflecting on what I've done. I've learned this about myself.' That's usually in I was doing that process, taking him through what he was doing, asking him questions, getting him to describe his activities, and in one of her meetings, he said to me "that portfolio has been such a help. I have recently gone for a job, and they asked me a question about a particular skill that I had practised, and I had it at my fingertips. It was there in my portfolio, and I was able to just virtually lift it out and go, this is what I've done. This is how I practice this skill." So I was extremely stoked about that and his comment on that. Generally, it's mixed, and I think that is something that's important for the instructor upfront to say what this is for, that this is what you can do with it at a later stage.

Kristina Hoeppner: 13:35

I think it'll probably help when you have the prior student experience and can draw on those examples to make it more visible to the students of why the portfolio is an important component of their experience, in order for them to understand that from the get go, and not only realise that at the end.

Sue Schibeci: 13:56

Yes, and that's what often happens. it's the end product, rather than that process trying to get them out of that mindset is not easy.

Kristina Hoeppner: 14:05

We've talked a bit about the experience that your students have, that they create the portfolio you engage with them in regards to feedback, what do the portfolios then of your students look like since you give them the possibility to be creative with a portfolio in whichever way they want to interact with it? Do your students typically write text, or do they also use multimedia elements in their portfolios?

Sue Schibeci: 14:33

Generally, they rely on text. I also encourage them to contribute some sort of evidence of that. I get them to reflect using the STAR method. So what their situation, their task, achievement and result was, reflecting on their particular goal and some sort of evidence that they've practised it somehow. So for example, if their goal was about professional written communication, a lot of the students will reflect in that structure, but will also give you a screenshot of their email, for example, redacted, of course, just to show that they've practised it in a professional sense. But I also feel that it's important for them to have that evidence later on because you forget what you've done[laughs]. I don't think they realise that that you do all of these things and you forget that you've done it, and then you could look back and go, 'Oh, I did okay there. Or I can do it a different way, and I can improve on it.' I do encourage multimedia. It's been an uphill battle. I have had students have wanted to improve their presentation skills. They have filmed themselves practising a presentation a couple of times and then reflected on their last final presentation. That is really powerful to show that process improvement in that skill.

Kristina Hoeppner: 16:03

That is for sure to have that evidence stand next to the reflection because then everybody looking at the portfolio can understand the reflection better and where the student is coming from because they do see that evidence.

Sue Schibeci: 16:17

Contrastingly, a lot of students will upload a photo, but you can't quite see the connection. You really want them to draw from that picture exactly what they want to show, and that's often missing.

Kristina Hoeppner: 16:31

That's then, I guess, where you come in by giving feedback and encouraging them to really look at it from the reflective perspective.

Sue Schibeci: 16:40

Yes, you attempt to, and it usually works.

Kristina Hoeppner: 16:44

Now with work-integrated learning experiences, besides you as the lecturer or as the tutor for the experience, support staff, and the students, we also have the employer involved in the overall experience. Do these employers also give feedback?

Sue Schibeci: 17:01

Not specifically for the portfolio. Work-integrated learning is still very siloed with the three different parties, and you try to work together. The fact is that the student goes out to the workplace. You don't see them as the facilitator or the academic or the university rep(resentative), and you only see them in that intermittent meeting or feedback opportunity. The employer doesn't directly comment on the portfolio. I encourage students, as part of their evidence, to quote feedback from their supervisors or screenshot an email, for example, and that is evidence that they can reflect on.

Kristina Hoeppner: 17:47

Since the employers know that the students create the portfolios, have some asked whether they can also take a look at those portfolios?

Sue Schibeci: 17:56

I have never had an employer ask. That's probably something that has been remiss from my perspective, that partner involvement in assessment and that development. It's a bit tricky in so far as you don't want to take up too much of their time because they are being generous in their time by supervising the students, but you are conscious that it'd be really good to have their input into assessments and the direction that the students are going in, the types of graduate capabilities that the student would ideally come out with from university.

Kristina Hoeppner: 18:32

Yeah. We've heard from other organisations that use portfolios in WIL that some have the employers involved where they can get feedback. In other cases, they are specifically not on the portfolios so that the students can also more freely talk about their experience in a company, keeping it a safe space for the students to also seek support from the academic supervisor or tutor in their experience. So I think it does come down to what the goals of the portfolio are and in how far the employers should or should not be involved in and then see how that fits, of course, into the overall programme.

Sue Schibeci: 19:13

That's right. You're encouraging that personal growth, that personal reflection, and if they have to edit it because other people are seeing it, it makes it difficult.

Kristina Hoeppner: 19:25

Yeah, work-integrated learning experiences are a part of the overall academic experience that students have at the institutions that you've worked at. Do you have insight into whether they now use reflection more also in other subjects, or that other courses draw on what the students have learned in their WIL experience, but also what they have reflected on in their portfolio?

Sue Schibeci: 19:52

One of my frustrations is that students tend to use it just for that particular course, unit, experience. I'm a great believer in foundational learning, so building upon what you've experienced before, and I would love to see it being used beyond just this individual, siloed experience. The institutions that I've worked in haven't really encouraged that. A programme wide use of portfolios would be a wonderful thing. Working out how to encourage that, it's a bit of a goal for me, I think.

Kristina Hoeppner: 20:29

Maybe we can also get some more of your instructors along to Eportfolio Forum, which will be held in November at the University of Tasmania, but will also be online.

Sue Schibeci: 20:40

Yes.

Kristina Hoeppner: 20:42

Are there any other ideas that you have for future use of portfolios in your context?

Sue Schibeci: 20:49

A particular thing that I would like to work on at the moment is for students to produce their portfolio through their experiences as a process document. So it will end up being almost like a stream of consciousness, anything that's happened, and it doesn't have to be perfect, it doesn't have to be precise, it doesn't have to be edited. It can just be a document where they can put their thoughts about what's happened in that day. And I know that might be a bit onerous, and I would try to make it a little bit more accessible. What the idea, of course, of a portfolio is that it's curated. From that stream of consciousness document they can actually bring across into another document something that is curated that actually demonstrates their progress in a particular skill that can be used within a job application, for example, or to showcase something in particular that they've achieved. That's the way I am trying to think or the direction I'm trying to go in. The onerous nature of contributing each day to a portfolio, it shouldn't be like that. It should be almost like a document where they can actually curate and transfer to another, more beautiful looking document that can be used as the final portfolio. That's the idea I'm trying to work on.

Kristina Hoeppner: 22:19

It does rely on typing and writing. So I wonder if the possibilities of speaking, recording it, and then having it automatically transcribed, maybe that could then help. Many, many years ago, I've heard of educators, it was either WinTec or University of Waikato, where they used portfolios with nursing students, but instead of asking them to write their portfolio entries, they were calling them in. So they did an audio recording. At that time, it was via an actual phone call, and so they built an audio repository of their portfolios. What the educator had found was that they did get more of those immediate reactions in the portfolio. You don't really want to get into too much hindsight and lose the opportunity to help them through a situation. The nursing students really got into the habit of regularly reflecting because they could be on a call while they were out and about, rather than needing to sit in front of a computer and type.

Sue Schibeci: 23:25

It is restrictive, yes, and that's a great idea. It was something that I imagined, that I'd hoped that some students would do, that they would just record a snippet just after an incident, for example, or in their lunch break, or something like that, and put it into their portfolio as an evidence of a particular happening or progress or non progress, of a particular skill.

Kristina Hoeppner: 23:47

Mark Brady, a student that I had interviewed, he got into the practice of writing journal entries, really on a regular basis, and then going over them and only sharing the summary of those entries then as part of his portfolio, along the lines what you had also mentioned earlier, reflect regularly and then curate out of that which you then share.

Sue Schibeci: 24:12

That's a beautiful example. Nothing's new, is it[laughs]? You could come up with a wonderful idea, and then it's been done.

Kristina Hoeppner: 24:20

Yeah, yyou're right there, Sue, it has been done, but I think these days, we do have some other technical possibilities to make it easier for the students because we now do have auto transcription possibilities.

Sue Schibeci: 24:33

We discuss it a lot, the power of AI and what it can do. And after all, it is another tool. A tool is only as good as the user. It can be destructive, I guess, but it can also really help with that particular task.

Kristina Hoeppner: 24:52

I do look forward to exploring some of those scenarios more and how we can use AI in portfolio practice. Just to put in yet another ad block for the Eportfolio Forum, we will have a workshop on that with Associate Professor Dr Christine Slade from University of Queensland, and Professor Dr Michael Sankey, who had come up with a whole bunch of scenarios for AI use in Portfolio practice. And so hopefully we can also explore some of that in the context of WIL to see what we might want to test out, what somebody might have already done in order to get a better understanding what are practical possibilities, how has it already been done, and where is more research and also more practical experience needed?

Sue Schibeci: 25:40

I look forward to that, too.

Kristina Hoeppner: 25:42

Yeah, I look forward to having you on our workshop, Sue.

Sue Schibeci: 25:45

I will attend.

Kristina Hoeppner: 25:47

So now to our last three questions, the quick answer round. Which words do you use to describe portfolio work?

Sue Schibeci: 25:56

Reflective, has to be, forward facing, and transformative.

Kristina Hoeppner: 26:03

What tips do you have for learning designers or instructors who create portfolio activities?

Sue Schibeci: 26:10

Focus on what you want the students to do and to actually achieve. What happens is that we have to use them as an assessment. So be really focused on what you want them to get out of it so that it doesn't compromise that personal touch nor the creativity that a student may put into their portfolio.

Kristina Hoeppner: 26:33

Last but not least, what advice do you have for your students, for the portfolio authors?

Sue Schibeci: 26:39

My advice and what I'd really like them to do is to focus on their learning and the process that they're learning, rather than what they achieve at the end. It is a really great tool to think about how you're learning as you're going along and using what you've learned in the past as you're doing it in the present.

Kristina Hoeppner: 26:59

Thank you so much, Sue, for these tips and also for outlining your practice around using portfolios in work-integrated learning experiences to help students reflect on what they are doing outside of their academic context, and then bringing all that knowledge and their reflections and their experiences back to the institution. Thank you so much.

Sue Schibeci: 27:24

Thank you, Kristina. It's a pleasure, absolute pleasure.

Kristina Hoeppner: 27:29

Now over to our listeners. What do you want to try in your own portfolio practice? This was 'Create. Share. Engage.' with Dr Sue Schibeci. Head to our website, podcast.mahara.org, where you can find resources and the transcript for this episode. Our next episode will air in two weeks. It would be wonderful if you told a colleague about it so they can listen as well. Until then, create, share, and engage.