Kristina Hoeppner: 0:05

Welcome to'Create. Share. Engage.' This is the podcast about portfolios for learning and more for educators, learning designers, and managers keen on integrating portfolios with their education and professional development practices. 'Create. Share. Engage.' is brought to you by the Mahara team at Catalyst IT. My name is Kristina Hoeppner. Today, my guest is Dr Vickel Narayan from Massey University, who works in the Institute of Education, alongside Professor Dr Mandia Mentis and Associate Professor Dr Wendy Holley-Boen, who were previous guests on the podcast. In today's conversation, we focus on some aspects of the impact of AI on portfolio work and how Vickel and his team make use of AI in portfolios. I'm excited that I have the chance to speak with Vickel about that because he leads the efforts around that topic at Massey University in the Institute of Education. Welcome to the podcast, Vickel.

Vickel Narayan: 1:10

Kia ora Kristina. Kia, ora kōtou to the listeners.

Kristina Hoeppner: 1:13

Vickel, can you please tell us what you do at Massey University?

Vickel Narayan: 1:17

I'm a Senior Lecturer Digital Learning, so I'm part of the Specialist Teaching team, the Specialist Programme, and I also teach across the Institute in the digital endorsement or the courses that we offer. That covers both undergraduate and postgraduate, and there mostly focused on digital learning and teaching, and with the Specialist Teaching, same role with the experienced teachers who actually work with our akonga and tamariki.

Kristina Hoeppner: 1:43

'Specialist Teaching' might not be a term that is used in other countries around the world. What is the focus of that programme at Massey, please?

Vickel Narayan: 1:52

So the Specialist Teaching programme is for experienced teachers who are in the field of learning support. They work with our tamariki across the motu, so across Aotearoa New Zealand, helping them with their learning and well being. So within the programme, we have about eight endorsements - that covers a diverse range of specialities, so learning behaviour, early intervention, gifted, deaf and

Kristina Hoeppner: 2:17

The programme has been running for quite a hard of hearing, blind and low vision, Korowai Mokopuna, so that's in partnership with Kohanga Reo National Trust, long time at Massey, right? covers almost all the spaces within learning support. It's a

Vickel Narayan: 2:26

Yes, more than 10 years. And now we roughly post grad course for experienced teachers who are in those roles across New Zealand. have about both first year and second year students, we have more than 400.

Kristina Hoeppner: 2:46

That was also one of the reasons why I wanted to have this interview now with you because when I had talked to Mandia and Wendy last year, they had mentioned that they were about to grade about 200 portfolios, and therefore it sparked the interest in how a you're working with pretty large classes, but then also a second comment that she had made was around use of AI in education, and that portfolios also really help counteract that a bit, so that you do also know that students are creating their content and reflecting on their own learning. But we'll get to that very, very shortly. Before that, when did you actually encounter portfolios for the first time, Vickel?

Vickel Narayan: 3:30

Portfolio is something I was really keen on. So it has been part of my career from the onset. So we're really talking about maybe 2008 or maybe even before that. I've always seen portfolio is a critical component of learning and teaching. So that's what, more than about 18 years of having worked with portfolios across quite a lot of different cohorts of students and across quite a lot of faculties as well. Prior to joining Massey, I was at University of Sydney. We did quite a lot of work with portfolios there. And then prior to that, it was AUT and because of my central role, we did quite a lot of work across faculty, so Physiotherapy, Nursing, even Communication Design students. And prior to that, I was at Unitec, so more hands on, practical sort of Mechanical Engineering across the spectrum, up until Health and Medical Imaging. So it has always been a part of my journey, a very important one as well. And to some extent, I did cover that in my PhD as well, working with journalism students.

Kristina Hoeppner: 4:33

From the areas that you've been supporting, Nursing to Engineering and all other study programmes and now, of course, also the teaching ones, they seem to be related to professions where reflection is kind of built in. Is that why portfolios have always been then a part of your teaching and working with students?

Vickel Narayan: 4:57

I think the immediate inclination is towards professionalism or towards those professional disciplines, but I have also done work where the students were not actually gearing up to be in a professional or profession or in that field. I think the conception is it's mostly relevant for professional practices or students who actually going to end up in a professional field, but I think portfolios have a much diverse use or could be used. If you're studying, you're studying to learn to become something, not necessarily a professional, like a nurse or a medical imager or a teacher or something like that. A great example was Mechanical Engineering. That was the very first project, or one of the very first projects I did, was the students loved it. It gave them so much more space to actually really engage with their thinking or even go back and start exploring, how do you even dismantle an engine? The pre-empt there was you'd normally sit through a class and listen to someone talk to you about how you dismantle and what sort of components you'd come across. What we, in fact, did was we asked the students, hey, how about not go through the lecture first? How about you engage in groups? What would be the processes? Use the content that you could find or would find on YouTube and other resources and create something for yourself and then we'll go through this whole thing on our is a class. Same with my undergrad course that I'm teaching at the moment. It's about learning in the digital age, not gearing towards becoming anything, but it's one of those critical skills, I think, you need to have in order to be able to evaluate or even think about your thinking. So that's about metacognition. So I think the historical inclination was more practice based. One of the areas we could actually utilise portfolios a bit more is just holistic learner development. I don't really see them as a binary. I honestly do see them as critical component of just being a good learner. I think we're at a junction now where we need learners who go beyond just the content, learners who are actually able to learn lifelong learning. Yeah, so I've always held this principle about portfolio is that it can be used anywhere or any place or any discipline, and hence the diversity of its use in my work.

Kristina Hoeppner: 7:13

The study programmes that you had mentioned typically have a competency framework involved, or then the professionals need to demonstrate their skills based on a framework, but as you say correctly, that doesn't necessarily have to be always the case when you work with portfolios, but they can be used in any study programme because it is the transfer of knowledge that we want the students to learn so that they can apply their skills elsewhere, no matter what they are doing then in the future.

Vickel Narayan: 7:42

That competency based portfolio, that would be my biggest gripe because again, you are actually gearing the portfolios as a way of assessing students learning. So it's geared towards assessments, which is fine, and that's always the purpose when I use it, but I think it can be a bit more than that. When you focus on competencies, they're relevant for a very short timeframe. What we miss in the equation is the learner and how they are developing. So while the focus mostly is always on the content, what I have tried to do is focus on the process in learner development. You will probably know that every programme is designed with the graduate profile, but at no point do we actually really engage with how the learners develop across a programme, not across our course. And I think with AI, these are the attributes, the elements that we now need to be cognisant of. With AI, you can do quite a lot. You can, in fact, fudge a portfolio as well, but you can't evidence those attributes, the graduate attributes. It's very difficult to fudge with an AI. You can do it. It's a very complex situation that we find

Kristina Hoeppner: 8:52

That is actually the perfect start into ourselves in, our conversation so that we bring in that artificial intelligence element, and the reason why I wanted to talk with you because, of course, over the last few years, artificial intelligence, in particular, large language models, a very small subset of what can be considered AI, has been entering the general conversation, and, of course, then also education, and is also becoming a bigger topic within portfolios because AI doesn't stop in front of the portfolio. Students do make use of it in many different ways. And so when Mandia told me about the grading of the portfolios that you were doing, she did mention that the portfolios do help mitigate a number of the challenges that AI poses within education, where you may not really know, have the students actually produced an essay or written an essay or done the work, or have they just put it through a large language model. Where, Vickel, do you see currently the challenges of AI in regards to education? And how can portfolios help mitigate some of those challenges?

Vickel Narayan: 10:09

Before I address both of them, I want to make my positioning clear about where I stand with AI. As with any technology, I absolutely believe that AI is and will increasingly play a huge role in the whole learning and teaching process. I come from a position that we should use it. It should be integrated. It should be embedded within all of our learning and teaching practices. We should encourage our students to learn it because that's the world they will be working in. But how do we do that, for me, is critical. So some of the things or ways that I view AI is actually a partner in co-creating meaning and understanding, and that's through the lens of being informed, of being critical and being ethical. That's my personal stance when it comes to AI and how I see AI in learning and teaching. So some of the examples that I may share might be from Specialist Teaching, but are also the courses that I teach because I do embrace them in the undergrad programme and as well as the post grad programmes.

Kristina Hoeppner: 11:07

Vickel, you mentioned the co-creation of meaning and understanding. Do you have an example for that, how that can play out, particularly for you, where you've seen that?

Vickel Narayan: 11:18

I think that we have to start by acknowledging one of those affordances that AI offers us. When you look at design and reflecting on my experience, at best, if you're designing a course, you might work with the course coordinator and the person who's facilitating the course and yourself. As the person from a central unit, you might not always have the discipline expertise or the knowledge; you come from a more pedagogical design and educational perspective. So at best, if you're designing a course, you might have one academic or maybe a couple. If you're designing an entire or revisiting an entire programme, you might have the team, but you might just work with the programme coordinator and then the courses that you're redesigning or looking at. So the central point for me has been you actually just drawing upon a couple of people and their expertise when you're designing the course. That actually has always been a limitation. So when you design a course from input from a couple of academics, what we have to acknowledge is the limitation, and the limitation is the siloed nature that we dwell in. So we always favourite a couple of authors that we draw for. So this is the content we should embody in the design of the course, or this is what the learners should explore. And even my own bias is a designer coming in or as an advisor coming in, I'll draw upon maybe a framework, or, again, a set of authors that I love. So what AI really breaks here is that sort of top down approach of looking at knowledge or the knowledge that learners should engage with. With AI and large language models, what we're looking at are themes that emerge from a collection of authors that we don't really know about. Increasingly, what I'm finding out is when I actually engage with AI in my practice is I'm actually coming across concepts that I would have never engaged with or would have known just because of the silos that I have lived in. Now, flipping that when we design a course and we ask students to read this set of readings in or whatever I engage with this resource, we're actually pushing them to engage in the solid way of looking at the knowledge world, regardless of the discipline. So I think one of the things that AI actually breaks there is the knowledge systems that our learners engage with now. Given that AI has problems or limitations because it's not representative of all the voices, so it's a mainstream voice, but still, I think it offers a diverse spectrum of views on one single topic. When it comes to co-creation, the learners are now basically faced with cognitive dissonance. So they are going, 'Oh, okay, well, this is what my lecture is asking me to read, but here are other things that I'm coming across,' if they're using AI effectively, 'how should I actually build it into the discourse or the narrative, or whatever I'm supposed to deliver back as an outcome for this topic or however long this module is?' So I think that's where AI actually does offer that sort of critical dissonance. Then of course, depending on how well the learner uses the AI platform, it's the conversation that evolves with the content and with that sort of themes that they found in engaging with now. I, actually, see AI as sort of another person in class who's invisible, another peer that you can now converse with regardless of time or space. So with your peers, you might, at best, if it's on campus, engaged in class in a very specific or limited timeframe, whereas with AI, you can actually have this ongoing conversation about really critically unpacking where those concepts are going. Now, I have to acknowledge that AI systems are not perfect, that don't make mistakes, but that's where I fall back to the framework that it's about, it's guided by being informed, it's guided by being critical, and it's also guided by being ethical. So by informed means, you know what AI platforms you're using and how they are limited, and then being critical, well, yes, you've given me this whole chunk of information, how do I validate the accuracy of what it's saying that is whether it's correct not? And then being ethical, being ethical in a sense, being ethical to yourself, not losing yourself or not losing your identity and voice. Because honestly, it's another domain that we don't really talk about in education is from year one or even zero, we are working with learners establishing their voice, how they speak, how they write, how they actually come across when they write to the reader, but also their identity. Do you really want to offload all of that, you have spent 13 years in the New Zealand education system to really learn about yourself and how you actually cultivate this? Do you want to offload this to an AI platform which is basically just going to synergise everyone. So now everyone is talking the same way. We have to privilege ourselves, but we also have to privilege what we offer, what we create. It's basically assuming that, yes, AI is a system that supports me in what I'm trying to achieve, but I'm the expert here. I'm the expert, along with my peers, in the person who's facilitating this course. So it's really assuming that you are the person in charge here and not handing everything over to AI. It's the critical lens, but also the ethical lens and the informed lens. We know at the moment that the best way, or the most mainstream way, we engage with AI platforms is through a simple prompt, but does that one single prompt give you the best output? So it's about exploring or going into this recursive loop of really learning about how to effectively engage with AI platforms, and that's where I think that integrated and embedded approach comes in. There's still quite a lot that we're learning about AI platforms. Just a simple comparison - with social media, it took years to accumulate billions of users, with AI, it really accumulated more than 2 billion users in a matter of months. So there's a huge knowledge gap. We've always had that knowledge gap in academia and more so in higher education because it starts from the early ages. Yeah, we inherit a lot of problems, but I think now we as educators in institutes of education, we have a more ethical responsibility to fill this gap even more so.

Kristina Hoeppner: 17:26

That's quite a lot to unpack. Today, what I'd like to focus on from what you have said on our small world of portfolios because, of course, especially prompting in large language models or using different large language models is to produce content, to write something. In the portfolio, of course, we have the learning evidence, so that is the experiences that the students go through, where there can be content generation involved, and then we have the reflective element in it. So Vickel, in which areas for the portfolios, do you then currently see artificial intelligence used?

Vickel Narayan: 18:06

I actually do not draw a distinction between portfolios and where AI is actually taking us, and hence I tried to cover that because I think it's one of those neglected domains of portfolios. So we've always taken portfolio as more sort of a content platform where students deposit quite a lot of this. Remember it very early on I said, it's about process and about building that holistic learner skills. These are equally critical because if we just focus on content, it becomes very competency based. So it becomes portfolio for assessment of learning, and where I'm actually trying to take this is that, yes, it could be a portfolio of assessment, but it could also be a portfolio of learning for assessment. With a simple switch or flick or even just a shift of mindset, what we're doing is we're actually looking for evidence from the students of what they're supposed to be learning, but also for learning, and that grants quite a lot of lifelong learning principles. This is where these other skills come in.

Kristina Hoeppner: 19:06

Yeah, so I'm definitely not meaning that the portfolio is just that content repository and uploading of files of what students have done, but really more drawing into well, besides that content creation, which, of course, if a student reflects on their presentation, they need to have a presentation. So that's that content element, but really more wanting to go into well, for all the process related elements that you have in the portfolio, where do you see AI being used or maybe not used? Do you encourage certain use of artificial intelligence or do you actively discourage it so that you really want students to write their own text? Or is it that you say, well, you can write bullet points and then the AI can help you put it into a sentence or paragraph, then you review it and say, yes, it does work for me or does it not work for me, and then make adjustments. It's really more getting away from that simple prompting to create content for me. But where do you see other AI users in Portfolio practice?

Vickel Narayan: 20:09

I'll start with my undergrad. These are first year undergrad students. And of course, with the knowledge gap I was talking about, it's not just students. We ourselves, educators are going through this. So we actually drastically trying to learn or even keep up with what's happening. So in my undergrad, I actually encourage my students to use AI. So the very first assignment that they have to do is talk about and then create an artefact about how digital learning can benefit learners in the digital age. We say try and look at the affordances if you must in the constraints of any platform. You can choose a platform or you can talk about digital learning in a generic form. The change that I made, about two years ago when AI started coming in, was breaking that assignment up and really providing students with a - and so all of this actually ends up on their portfolio. We asked the students to write a narrative. And we said, 'Look, you start by writing a narrative because you're here to learn. That narrative has to be your own.' So we actually strictly say that narrative is your own. 'You actually draw upon journal articles, you can draw upon YouTube videos from trusted sources to create this narrative, and you submit about 500 to 800 words of that, and it has to be your own words.' What we then ask the students to do is, based on that narrative, we actually show students some of the platforms that they can use. So we actually say, 'Okay, you can use Claude or [Chat]GPT or any of the other similar LLMs to redraft that narrative that you've now written, that's your own work, redraft it, and see if you can create a storyline to create a video narrative of the same that captures the essence of your written narrative to then produce an artefact that goes on your portfolio.' So this is the ethical debate. 'If you're happy to share your draft and feed it into our AI system, go forward and use it. But if you don't want to use it, you can create the artefact using the skills you have,' and we provide them with scaffold for that. Of course, many students use AI. What they do is they create a storyboard from the narrative they've written. So we actually asked them to use the storyboard and to then create artefacts which they would have to Google, which was always a challenge, or even capture with their phones, if they could, to then use it to create the video narrative. We also then say, 'Okay, here's an example. You could actually create a whole narrative based on your written narrative using something like Eleven Labs. You refine the text in GPT, or whatever platform you want to use. You take it to Eleven Labs, and you create the audio file. Then what you do is using the artefacts that you can create, either using Canva or small video clips on GPT and other platforms, similar platforms, compose a video that's no longer than two minutes.' What we try to achieve is - this course is about digital learning in the digital age - we try to introduce students to these sort of platforms, but in the right one. We provide them with the scaffold to actually go well, this is the right way of engaging with these platforms. These are the right prompts that we need to put into the system in order to get the best artefact. You can also create multimedia resources, so stagnant images, moving images, video clips, up to half a minute. So they are actually starting with this at a very early age in the whole bachelor's degree, looking at how they can use AI to inform that whole process.

Kristina Hoeppner: 23:37

Do your students then also share their original draft in their Mahara portfolio?

Vickel Narayan: 23:45

Yes, so they do submit that as their first assignment, so the written draft and also link to the digital artefact that they've created, the two-minute video and that also goes in their portfolio. So in the portfolio, what we do ask them is to reflect on their journey of using AI and how it influenced their original thinking. So 'what did you start with and how far were you actually able to take it using these different AI platforms? So while storyboarding reflect on that process and how far you're actually able to grow or not.' Not every student enjoys using AI, so we have to flag that as well, that not every student is interested in using AI.

Kristina Hoeppner: 24:22

Do you then also use an AI tool for the student reflection so that students can engage with the tool to reflect on their learning, on their process or do you give your students a set number of questions that you'd like them to answer?

Vickel Narayan: 24:39

To reflect on that, Kristina, I think just reflecting on Specialist Teaching would be a nice one because these are teachers literally out there with many years of experiences. So I was a post grad course, not saying that it's not possible in an undergrad course, but I think this is a good example. So in the Specialist Teaching programme, we just hit our contact workshop, so we had our students with us for two days, and one of the workshops we had with them, or station we had with them, was actually talking about AI and using it for learning, but also for professional practice. Just because we are saying we don't have or we shouldn't use AI doesn't mean people are not using it. So the stance we have actually taken is, rather than using it anyhow, let's make an informed decision about using AI effectively. In that workshop, we actually encourage our students, also flagging some of the ethical and societal dilemma that we face, also flagging the limitations AI systems have, but emphasising the continuum that I spoke about, that being informed, being critical and being ethical sort of forms the guideline for them, the principles through which they can use AI. So in the programme, they go through modules, and we say,'Look, go through this, assume that you are the expert in this equation, and use AI to ask questions.' So we actually take them through a sort of a systematic way of engineering prompts, which prompts reflection on both behalf. So it prompts AI to be a bit more critical and deep. And also, while engaging with AI, our students actually are critical with their own thinking. So it's not assuming that AI knows everything. We're flipping it and saying, 'No, you are the expert. Remember, you are the expert. You have many years of experience,' and AI will never be able to gain that sort of insight. And that's the biggest limitation. Those sort of environmental variables, those sort of nuances, those sort of contexts, that sort of people understanding. I don't think AI will have that and we get that because of our five senses. AI doesn't hate that. AI actually doesn't have any sense of understanding those sort of nuances to what makes meaning. We say to our students, and we guide them through this process that, 'Yes, use our modules as a starting point. Use your experience to build on that, and then use AI along with your peers and colleagues, as one aspect of engaging critically with what are we doing, what are we talking, what am I doing, and how can I take it further?' So to help our students, we also have a small module that the students can choose to build upon the workshop, and of course, what's embedded in the programme to build a bit further so take a deep dive into AI. It actually builds upon quite a lot of different things because what we're finding is these teachers are now all of a sudden responsible of drafting their own guidelines for use in schools or within their own cluster. We struggled, or most of the universities are still struggling, and we would think that we are quite well resourced, whereas the teachers actually find themselves quite isolated. So they're actually faced with the challenge, which is almost impossible. I think this is where that whole embedded, integrated approach comes in. It's not an equation or a variable that we can ignore, but more we build into our learning and teaching systems in our pedagogies, the better it becomes. The more it makes sense from a portfolio sense because a portfolio is supposed to be a reflection on everything that goes in your learning journey.

Kristina Hoeppner: 28:00

Yes, and also making sure that the large language models in particular are used thoughtfully. So you're using AI for content, not content creation, really, but more content refinement for the activities that you had mentioned earlier, where students provide the draft first, and then the written draft turned into a video. So you're creating multimodal content and then also supporting students in their reflection on their learning.

Vickel Narayan: 28:30

Yes, like, can I also add, when it comes to authentic artefacts, so we've always asked our learners to upload artefacts on a portfolio, and when I say authentic artefact, I consider authentic artefact an artefact that has immediate relevance to what they're evidencing on their portfolio. So it could be, if it's appropriate, a picture from the classroom or a recording or something like that. But we know ethically, it's not always possible. Sometimes we are limited by the skills we have in how we represent the knowledge we're trying to represent. The limitation with portfolio is mostly being if you can get a picture or a photo and then write things up in a text, at best, if you can do an audio whereas with AI, the affordances we have here are multimodal. So with multimodal channels for representing knowledge or what you're trying to now evidence on your portfolio, you're engaging with your thoughts and reflection in many different ways. With co-creating, pne of the ways we've seen our learners is how they are now creating mind maps, quite complicated but very detailed. That's through constant conversation with AI platforms. Also how they're creating authentic artefacts. These are not from the classroom, but how they actually able to conceptualise and then represent that conceptualisation with a very deep meaning, which is going beyond the content and really intertwining with those sort of nuances, those variables that you find in the class, in the holistic environment. I think, the sort of co-creation that comes in really helps, or even students having a podcast or creating podcasts with Notebook LM. So they're engaging with their own self with AI prompting them, taking them through this critical lens of, how do you unpack what you do and why you do it, and how you do it and where you do it.

Kristina Hoeppner: 30:18

What I heard right now was that if somebody doesn't have the design skills to come up with a really nice looking infographic, now we do actually have the possibilities to make that content also available in a different medium that then thinking in particular about Specialist Teaching, will then help other learners engage with the content more easily or understand the content more easily, therefore bringing in more of an equity lens as well that is not limited to the skills that a teacher has, but a teacher who has an idea but just cannot express it themselves in a design way now has easier tools available, therefore allowing them to work with that and refine it, then more so that their vision that they have in their head is then translated into that actual artefact.

Vickel Narayan: 31:16

Yes, portfolios have always been about student ownership, not just the portfolio, but the learning process as well. What portfolios, along with AI platforms, allow learners to do is really make it their own. We have a diverse spectrum of learners, generally speaking. Some are inclined to writing. They write really well, and some are inclined towards speaking. Some are actually inclined towards just diagrams. I love diagrams, personally, it actually helps me think a lot more. So all of these platforms are now really helping learners take ownership of the portfolio, but also the learning process and in doing so, there are some very intrinsic attributes that we actually benefit from. So there is a degree of motivation that we can capitalise on because now the learners are going well, actually, I don't have to always write. I can write, but I can also make it my own. If I love storytelling, I can do that without having to learn Adobe or even learning how to edit videos. So it's really empowering those sort of student skills to make it really immerse themselves in the learning process, but also really helping students find their voice. Along with portfolio in the courses and what we actually require our students to submit as part of the learning process, another thing is enabling learner voice, which also helps them get motivated because they are really making it their own. And so through these platforms, learners are actually finding their voice or could find their voice if we use it effectively. One of the things I actually try and do is not prescribe a platform, but talk about what are different modes that the students can create these artefacts or help inform their own learning journey, and really helping the students unpack that a bit more from their own need to go, 'What is it that I actually need to work with in order to really help myself and then accumulate what I'm needed to as part of the portfolio?' That goes back to the whole notion of student voice and student identity because they're quite heavily integrated, and the limitation of portfolios mostly has been that it has to be written. I think, from a designer perspective and from a universal design perspective and equity inclusiveness, we're at a point where AI platforms do offer us these easy pickings to actually really make it equitable, make it inclusive, and to really make it fair for all the learners.

Kristina Hoeppner: 33:39

Do you see any other ways in which you want to explore or use AI effectively in Portfolio practice? Of course, it's very difficult to see in which exact direction artificial intelligence will go because it is a very fast moving target, but are there certain ways that you'd like to incorporate it more, or where you say, this is what you can see in the future of how you can support your students a bit better if the appropriate tools were available.

Vickel Narayan: 34:10

As you acknowledged, it's quite complex, and we are only just learning about what AI can do, and even that is at a surface level. I do believe that - I provide a bit of wondering here a bit. With the emergence of AI, I think, especially higher education institutes, we are in a difficult situation here. While we're trying to reinvent our systems, we also are sort of trying to evaluate and re-examine what our relationship is with the learners because prior to AI, we do have a system here which is readily available to all our adult learners. So if they really wanted to learn something, not saying that they will learn it the right way or the best way, they might actually end up learning something which is incorrect, but at least they have access to something that can lead them much further now, other than coming to a university or any higher education institute. We have to re examine our relationship with our students and what it means in the age of AI. Are we entirely just about credentialing and making sure that the stamp is there and we can say that the students able to perform this task or do we actually need to go a bit more and a bit deeper? Looking at that, but also, how can our graduates go beyond in the age of AI and do the right things? This is where focusing on student voice and focus on student identity, immersing learners in their learning, giving them the ownership. And this binds quite well with portfolio and the ethos that underpins the ePortfolio. The more we bring the learners in this journey, the more, I think, we are in a situation or a better situation to actually embrace AI for the right reasons. It also mitigates those issues that we are facing with AI and assessment or the security of the assessment. Because when you make it about the learners, if you really are passionate, which is what we're talking about your learning, I think, there's less inclination to hand over the ownership of learning to an external system to write it for you and then submit that as an assessment because if you're really engaged and now passionate about you will use that tool to really build upon, how can I actually go further? And I think that's the reason why adult learners actually come to a higher education institute is to actually go beyond what they gain on their own. Those are the skills that I would focus upon. And these are not new, and I think they are more so important now with AI because for me, it's really highlighting these things that these big principles that we need to focus on while we're focusing on the content and knowledge, which we have always done.

Kristina Hoeppner: 36:45

Yeah, and also giving students the choice of whether they want to use an AI tool or not, and if they're using an AI tool, which one they want to use. Because you did mention equity and ethics, certain models have very skewed understanding of indigenous populations, and therefore it needs to be the possibility for students to decide whether they want to work with a particular tool or not. Having that choice available empowers them then to make the decisions for themselves in how far they also want to engage with it.

Vickel Narayan: 37:20

I have to say, in no way is AI perfect. If you have been like doing the rounds on social media platforms, you might have come across the example where if you ask, I do it every week, if you ask any platform this question that I need to wash my car, and the car washes 100 meters away, and then you ask the platform, should I walk or drive? Most of the time, well, even last week, Claude and GPT said, 'Oh, that's a no brainer. You should walk to the car wash.' So this is what we actually inherit when we embrace an AI platform. It's basically going back to that whole notion of understanding the variables in the context. And this is where scaffolding our learners and ourself is very important, even with portfolio or any facet of learning and teaching, even assessment design. We need to acknowledge that while AI systems offer us quite a lot of different ways and things of doing, it does have its limitation.

Kristina Hoeppner: 38:11

That's a fun example of walking to the car wash, but without your car[laughs].

Vickel Narayan: 38:16

It gives you all sorts of rationale for why you should walk. It's really good for your health. It's fresh air. You'll be able to hear the birds and all that. But really, we know logistically, that's not what we want to achieve. So these are the nuances that our learners probably wouldn't know coming in, even post grad students, or even ourselves as educators. When I first came across this and I said, okay, this changes my view of AI. This is a basic question, if you ask a three-year old or anyone who's able to speak, they'll go,'Walking is not an option.' Becoming a learner with your learners is what I'll suggest that we need to do when it comes to portfolios because modelling is very important. Portfolios are not mainstream, like most of the learners wouldn't know what portfolios are, or at least what it looks like in higher education. So we as educators need to walk the talk in many ways, and also scaffold our learners at the same time.

Kristina Hoeppner: 39:07

So Vickel, what do you wish everybody knew about portfolios?

Vickel Narayan: 39:13

What I would actually like to stress is portfolios can be a much bigger, stronger, inclusive, equitable, empowering, enlightening platform, or I actually don't even think of it as a platform, I actually think of it as a framework to conceptualise[what] your teaching and learning is. When we embrace that bigger view of learning and teaching, I think, portfolios really take a world of their own, like it has a different meaning. It shifts what we are trying to do in the course to a holistic development of the learner. And I think that's where, like future focus or future proofing, that's where we need to be. While our learners are learning and gaining the knowledge, they can also be that global citizen that we actually need in today's world, and they're not a binary. We have always heard these sort of attributes in higher education that our learners will be this when they graduate. It could be that in a bigger form.

Kristina Hoeppner: 40:08

Yes, for portfolios, it's not so much about the tool, the technology to use, but really about the practice, and how we bring that to the students that they become the lifelong learners, and also that practitioners stay lifelong learners. Now to our last three questions in the quick answer round, Vickel, which words or short phrases do you use to describe portfolio work?

Vickel Narayan: 40:32

I've tried to move from a course centred view to more sort of a human centred so I always go immersion because you are immersed in your journey. So it's about capturing all of those serendipitous encounters that you have that enlightens you about what we're doing in our course. It's also about mana-enhancing. It's also about your journey. You are the one who's actually going through this. So it's really acknowledging you as the person in this journey. It's also about the nuances of learning and making meaning. And I do believe that learning happens everywhere, anywhere at any time. It's about capturing all of those things, and portfolio really enables you to do that, especially if you couple it with mobile devices. It's about ownership. It's about process.

Kristina Hoeppner: 41:15

Thank you. What tip do you have for learning designers or instructors, lecturers, who create portfolio activities?

Vickel Narayan: 41:24

I'll fall back on something that I sort of mentioned, which is keeping it authentic, making it as relevant to the learner as possible in the context. Very briefly, with the journalism course, this is at AUT, everything they did was on their portfolio. First-year journalism students, if we had just treated that course as'You're just here to listen to what journalism is and what governs journalism,' we could have done that, but we actually said, 'No, we want you to act and be a journalist.' Some of the outcomes we achieved with our students were remarkable to the extent of these first-year students being published in the Herald on the front page. These are sort of achievements we can achieve when we really put the learners and embrace what they have to bring and offer into the journey. So basically, really opening up the course and embracing everything that comes with the learner and what they bring.

Kristina Hoeppner: 42:15

That's a fantastic example of students not just writing in order to get a grade, but also seeing their work published, seeing their work out there in the world, so that they know, yes, they're making an impact.

Vickel Narayan: 42:27

A great example of coupling grade in assessment with holistic values and going, oh, just open this world up. A portfolio doesn't need to be yours. It can be read by many people, which is what these tools did. And those were the sort of outcomes they achieved. There are many examples from the three years I was actually with them. Remarkable for first year students.

Kristina Hoeppner: 42:47

Yeah, awesome. Now, speaking of the students, Vickel, what advice do you have for portfolio authors, be they students, but also be they professionals and people just in their working lives?

Vickel Narayan: 43:01

Embrace yourself, embrace your thoughts, embrace what you want to say, and make this space yours. The more you do that, the more clarity you get about who you are, but also what you're trying to achieve, if you're enrolled in a course, what you're trying to actually then achieve as an outcome in the course, assessment wise, but also learning wise. I think the more we acknowledge our own self and what we bring, the expertise, and we always underplay this in higher education. We actually assume that many learners are here because they don't know a lot, they can't offer a lot. But I think portfolios flip it, if you really holistically embrace the portfolio. That's where learners actually do own that territory, that space, and they can really make it their own. So be yourself and find relevance to what you're trying to learn in a course or a programme. Speak, and you will find your voice and your identity. I think along with learning, there's quite a lot of things we can build upon when it comes to portfolio because unlike any other forms of assessment, if it's an essay, portfolios offer you quite a lot of space to explore these dimensions. They are not binary to what you're learning. They actually do complement what you're trying to achieve in a course or a programme.

Kristina Hoeppner: 44:15

Yes, because, as you say, it is for you. You create the portfolio for yourself. It is yours, and the lecturer is invited in and can make comments, but it is not necessarily for them, even though it might be used for assessment purposes. Because the students can bring in themselves holistically, it does also help their future development.

Vickel Narayan: 44:36

It's also how we design for these activities or the activities that the students need to engage with because if we're actually confining them to very strict expectations, then they will stick to the exact word you're saying or what you need. I think we need to be a bit more encompassing and really making it authentic. It's not just professional field oriented. Authenticity is all around us. A PhD engineering student doesn't have to be an engineer to act like one or to learn like one. There are bridges all around us. They're buildings all around us. Nature has many designs. We can all learn from that. So it's that sort of authenticity that can spark a learner. So when you're designing for for new use in your course, think more holistically. Think here's your content, but how else your students can engage with that content and that knowledge and unpack it and go through that reflective cycle other than what you are offering? It's not the content that makes or informs the learning. It does a bit, but it's what the learners do with the content which makes the biggest difference. And it's that process that the portfolio really informs and supplements and complements. It's what the learners do with the content, and that's the intercoupling between doing and then engaging with the sort of design, authentic design, that helps the learner become a bit more than the content.

Kristina Hoeppner: 45:57

Fully agree with you that content in the portfolio is only a small component, because it is more about the reflection, engaging with others, learning through conversations and so on. So it was wonderful to hear some of your thoughts. I'm already seeing the gears churning in your head that we could have talked much, much longer about your portfolio experience and how you teach your students how to work with a portfolio and also how you engage with them, helping them express themselves in ways now, in particular, also with AI that they had not been able to in the past as easily, and therefore supporting your students, and then also, if you're looking at the Specialist Teaching programme and how the teachers can then support their students and can go through the processes, bring portfolio practices to their own students in order to encourage them to become those lifelong learners. So thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with us today so that we can also spark the thinking in the heads of our listeners in that direction and what they might want to do in the future. Thank you so much, Vickel.

Vickel Narayan: 47:07

Kia ora Kristina, for inviting me. I know that most of what I think was sort of blue sky thinking. It was mostly intentional to really push beyond what we do and what we have known and what we've been doing for a while, to really go into another space to imagine what else is possible. Thank you again for entertaining me and my thoughts. I absolutely loved the privilege to be here and talk about portfolios in bigger meanderings in education, including AI.

Kristina Hoeppner: 47:33

Thank you, Vickel. Now over to our listeners. As you think about your own portfolio work, what resonated with you most today? What do you want to explore more? Share your thoughts on LinkedIn, Bluesky, or Mastodon and tag me or send me an email. This was 'Create. Share. Engage with Dr Vickel Narayan. Make sure to check out the resources in the episode notes in your podcast app or at podcast.mahara.org. And if you find this valuable, share it with a colleague who'd appreciate it, too. Our next episode will air in two weeks. Until then, create, share, and engage.